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07-19-2013, 09:56 AM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
DSLR cameras simply cannot compete with mirrorless - especially when size is concerned. So why bother?
Wrong.

From Fuji's marketing:

"Step out with DSLR-style agility"
"Step up to DSLR-class image quality"


Fujifilm X-M1 Digital Camera | Fujifilm Canada

It's all the same $$'s and market space in price point.

In fact, you almost have to convince the consumer NOT to go with a DSLR, such as the tone of the Fuji ads.

What Fuji and Sony (NEX) are doing is competing exactly against the DSLR on size, minimizing the loss of OVF and PDAF. For DSLR's these are points to use as marketing pluses, but they still need to get the size down on many models.

The Sigma is a HUGE lens compared to what a mirrorless version would be for Fuji or NEX. There's a market for it, but this lens actually points out where APS-C has to go in DSLR format: small bodies and rugged, full-featured bodies with small lenses and rugged lenses. Backpack cameras. Soccer mom cameras. Big glass cameras..? Not so much. That's a dwindling scene for APS-C.

07-19-2013, 10:54 AM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
That is why there are good optical engineers who made the FA31 and there are the engineers responsible for abomination that is the FA28-80mm f/3.5-4.7
I think the budget is responsible for the latter......
07-19-2013, 11:01 AM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Because it's a design going in the opposite direction of the market relative to sensor size.
I don't think the market is going anywhere relative to sensor size. It is a wrong coupling.
You also should take into consideration that APS lenses are per default 50% shorter for the same magnification compared to FF. So even if you use the same kind of money on an APS lens that of a FF lens you get a 50% larger magnification. So theres no reason people should not be willing to pay as much or more for an APS lens as an FF lens....

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 07-19-2013 at 11:14 AM.
07-19-2013, 11:09 AM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote

Top results in any field, such as high end audio, formula one racing, exceptional optics, etc. are a completely different animal. .
Top results in formula one is one thing. High end audio and optics for SLR camera is totally different. High end audio is perhaps the field where it is easies to be at the top. Thats why there are litterally thosands of manufcaturers, many if not most are backyard companies. Virtually everything are old constructions and basically the same shit in new wrapping. Some are even pure swindle like Edge whose CD player was a $25 OEM DVD player put in a new box sold at $6000 or Goldmund whose CD player was $200 Pioneer with a new $5 trafo and put in a new box (what was it? $10000?).
Opics for SLR camera is not rocket science and their limitation is mostly economical; particularly in glass costs and assembly.


Last edited by Pål Jensen; 07-19-2013 at 11:16 AM.
07-19-2013, 11:47 AM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I don't think the market is going anywhere relative to sensor size. It is a wrong coupling.
Huh?

APS-C is now in compact cameras and mirrrorless compact systems (Ricoh GR, GXR, Coolpix A, NEX). If APS-C via K-mount is Pentax's bread and butter and the entirety of its DSLR base (K-01 excepted) then they are always in direct competition with every other APS-C sensor out there. If the lens availability is going to range from the enormous Sigma 18-35 vs the lightweight DA 35/2.4 macro, the bodies also need to adjust to those divergences in the market as well. With Pentax, they are not. We're getting utilitarian sizing and Canon (and Fuji) are diversifying their bodies to match both consumer variety AND lens sizing.

The K-01 sort of did that by pairing a pancake, redesigned 40mm with, but that was a half-baked camera compared to what it could have been.

Remember: K-mount is FF. It's APS-C that, in theory, should have a new mount with smaller, cheaper lenses to match the format, as Fuji has done with their X-series. If a new APS-C mount was forged then there's no way the Sigma would be as large as it is....no need.
07-19-2013, 11:56 AM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Many people here are commenting about the weight of this sigma lens - I mean, really? did you expect an 18-35mm f/1.8 lens to be a featherweight?

The Canon/Nikon 24-70 mm lenses are bricks and as it happens so is the sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 ASPH is also a brick. WHY is this surprising so many people?
Let's be clear, I understand the limitations that go into making a lens with these specs.

But was anyone even asking for this type of lens? Certainly not the soccer moms or the dads going to Disneyland. Even on these forums, superfast short range zoom wasn't really something I sensed that the members were clamoring for (Full Frame! Fast cheap small primes! Full Frame! SDM that doesn't break! Full Frame! Full Frame!).

The trend seems to be smaller and lighter for the walkaround and travel set. Even the Strobist has mentioned that he's ditched his DSLR's for travel. That's going to have a big influence on people who are thinking of what their next "walkaround" photography purchase would be.

Us photography enthusiasts can certainly appreciate the marvel of this lens. But the more I think about it, the more I'm solidifying my opinion that this is going to be an exceptional lens (and possibly going to become THE lens) but only for very defined purposes (as mentioned in my previous post).
07-19-2013, 12:00 PM   #262
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Well in consideration, maybe Sigma heard a lot from people buying their 17-50 F2.8 saying "I wish it was a little faster, and I don't need as much length".

And this lens is pretty much getting lauded as the bestest best lens this year in CaNikoTax mount by a lot of people.

And as an enthusiast, I would get this lens - EXCEPT I really want a FA*31 so oh well.
07-19-2013, 02:07 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by EarlVonTapia Quote
But was anyone even asking for this type of lens?
It is often that people don't know that they want a thing until somebody offers it....

07-19-2013, 02:31 PM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Huh?

APS-C is now in compact cameras and mirrrorless compact systems (Ricoh GR, GXR, Coolpix A, NEX). If APS-C via K-mount is Pentax's bread and butter and the entirety of its DSLR base (K-01 excepted) then they are always in direct competition with every other APS-C sensor out there. If the lens availability is going to range from the enormous Sigma 18-35 vs the lightweight DA 35/2.4 macro, the bodies also need to adjust to those divergences in the market as well. With Pentax, they are not. We're getting utilitarian sizing and Canon (and Fuji) are diversifying their bodies to match both consumer variety AND lens sizing.

The K-01 sort of did that by pairing a pancake, redesigned 40mm with, but that was a half-baked camera compared to what it could have been.

Remember: K-mount is FF. It's APS-C that, in theory, should have a new mount with smaller, cheaper lenses to match the format, as Fuji has done with their X-series. If a new APS-C mount was forged then there's no way the Sigma would be as large as it is....no need.
I think we all know Sigma didn't design this lens from the ground up around K-mount's needs. They undoubtedly designed it for Canon's and Nikon's APS-C cameras (as well as their own) and if they can make it work for K and A mounts... all the better.
07-19-2013, 02:52 PM   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by EarlVonTapia Quote
But was anyone even asking for this type of lens?
They could very well be creating a new market.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It is often that people don't know that they want a thing until somebody offers it....
Something like Freitag bags, Rubik's Cube and Starbucks.
07-19-2013, 04:00 PM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It is often that people don't know that they want a thing until somebody offers it....
QuoteOriginally posted by tzrenz0 Quote
They could very well be creating a new market.
It's becoming apparent to me that many people have the whole "oooooh shiny new thing" syndrome. Yes, this Sigma lens is a pretty cool cat, and kudos to Sigma for doing something rad and shaking things up. But I think I'll wait until the lens itself has been in the hands of everyday photographers for some period of time (at least a year?) before coming to any grand conclusions about what (if any) impact this lens is going to have on the APSC/DSLR/camera/photography industry. I will stand by my earlier opinion and state that this is probably going to be a very specialist lens, but hey I could be wrong.

Now I will politely step aside and show myself out of this discussion.
07-19-2013, 05:54 PM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I think we all know Sigma didn't design this lens from the ground up around K-mount's needs. They undoubtedly designed it for Canon's and Nikon's APS-C cameras (as well as their own) and if they can make it work for K and A mounts... all the better.
A weighty lens with no VR or IS for Canikon is going to have.......issues.

If anything it will perform better on a Pentax or Sony.

It's a lens for big people.
07-19-2013, 05:55 PM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It is often that people don't know that they want a thing until somebody offers it....
I will actually (gasp) agree with Pal here. This lens kinda dropped out of the blue, but it seems to be exceptional optically and really gathers the light ans allows for expanded DOF control on aps-c - in a zoom.

If I were wedded to aps-c DSLR, I'd probably be jonesing for this lens. I've been shooting with the Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 on FF for a couple years now, and it's really fun to easily get a certain 'look' I could only get with primes on aps-c before:

Below is 44mm f/2.8 on FF, which equals about 29mm f/1.8 on aps-c - the Sigma will own this look wide-open:



28mm f/2.8 = 18mm f/1.8

07-19-2013, 05:59 PM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
A weighty lens with no VR or IS for Canikon is going to have.......issues..
Imaginary issues, maybe. I shoot my not-featherweight 180 f/2.8 and 300 f4 on D800 all the time, no VR, exceptional acuity results.

If folks like to shoot at very low shutter speeds and have become dependent on VR, then yes, it could be an issue until they pick up their game a bit.
07-19-2013, 06:02 PM   #270
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...but a fast lens with 17 elements in 12 groups and designed at a price is going to have issues with flare. Theres no way around that.
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