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06-15-2013, 02:51 AM   #61
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06-15-2013, 03:19 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonakG Quote
Lack of visible AF point is really shame. They shouldn't have done that. As someone else pointed out, may be the hardware is present and it can be fixed by a firmware update before release.

The marketing wizards at Pentax must have been thinking like: K-x with no visible AF point - HIT, K-r with visible AF point FLOP, let's get rid of it .
When I first saw the announcement, I had an idea that I would buy one for my daughter. But now with knowing that K-500 lacks of focus point indicators then I just put off the idea of buying it. Sorry Pentax, you did not learn from your last mistake from the K-x .
06-15-2013, 04:33 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Have you permanently turned the focus point indicators off on your K10D?
Frankly - no. I didn't know I could. Then again I've never, ever used the moveable focus points on any digital camera. I just focus (using my eye) on my principal subject, recompose and click. I don't think I even see the LED in the viewfinder.

The Q and K-01 are a different story - I use the Green box on the LCD to sight and focus the camera on my subject, but I still recompose and click.

I will confess, in an unavoidable Pavlovian response, that I use the focus confirmation beep and light (though I am aware I could turn that beep off on most cameras).

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Do you mock at us?
Not at all - I'm just pointing out the camera can be used very effectively without the LED.
06-15-2013, 05:13 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
This is funny.

MOST of the people on this forum are sub-FF cost purchasers.

Pentax just makes really good, nicely specced, affordable DSLR's.

But the irony, Ogl, is that you say the photo world is much bigger.

Actually, its mostly made up of people taking photos with relatively inexpensive cameras!!

Photography by far, as in 99.99999% is made up of vernacular photography of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Flickr, Facebook, and huge a amounts of private sharing dominates all image taking by factors over any volume the "pros" put out. It's not even a contest.

So the companies that put people into the hands of that activity are part of what Pentax sells to.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps the truest words spoken on these crazy, FF hyped forums.

06-15-2013, 05:26 AM   #65
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I remember when I was facing the choice between a Canon bridge camera and a Pentax DSLR. I was a total beginner (like the people this camera is aimed at) and already had preference for the canon because of the name. I'd never heard of Pentax. However, the Pentax was on a refurb sale (K100D Super for $280! with the kit lens). Even then, I was still considering the more-expensive Canon S5. I didn't care about the OVF, the features, and especially the kit lens, which, to my beginner eyes, looked inferior to the 12x zoom of the Canon. I liked the flip-out screen and simplicity. Also the super-macro mode where you could focus on things that were 1mm away. But (obviously, since I'm here) I ended up going with the K100D, because it was cheaper.

Now, this happened ~5 years ago, before everyone and their mom had an entry-level DSLR. This entry-level craze is pretty new, if you think about it, and Pentax is definitely making the right move. Most users here probably won't be buying one because they're already enthusiasts, not beginners, but in that case get a K50 or the new yet-to-be-released FF/APSC model. Beginners, on the other hand, won't care about the AF points in the viewfinder (some will probably be using live view a lot) and will be looking mostly at price.
06-15-2013, 06:11 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Not at all - I'm just pointing out the camera can be used very effectively without the LED.
Absolutely.

but it's an ideal beginner feature...

...for a beginner camera.

The literature says there are AF points, this lets them know which ones were the subject of focus. That's a big assist.

That Pentax has classed this as a mid-range feature is very, very poor and will definitely cost sales as the competition now has it everywhere. Makes Pentax look cheap and out-of-touch with beginner needs.
06-15-2013, 06:46 AM   #67
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Claim: "I had my money in hand to buy this, but OMG, now that the truth is exposed that there are no visible focus points, I will tell all my loved ones to buy a Rebel. Furthermore, I will abandon my glass collection and buy a D800 instead, since Pentax is doomed."

Hmmm, I doubt that any of us on the forum can really honestly say we will pay $599 for the K-500, when you can buy the K-30 for less money, RIGHT NOW. And that's with a lens. If you already have lenses (and I suspect EVERYONE on this forum does), you can buy a K-30 body for even less, RIGHT NOW.

Let us not forget that there is the K-50 which does have focus points, introduced for less than the K-30 originally was. As street prices fall, soon you will be able to buy the K-50 for less than the initial K-500 price. So, to those who claim they were about to pull the trigger but for the focus points, you might want to check that your pants are not on fire.

And do you think that maybe the reason Pentax is not offering the K-500 as a "body only" was to send a message that this camera is not intended for existing Pentaxians?
06-15-2013, 06:55 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tanzer Quote
Claim: "I had my money in hand to buy this, but OMG, now that the truth is exposed that there are no visible focus points, I will tell all my loved ones to buy a Rebel. Furthermore, I will abandon my glass collection and buy a D800 instead, since Pentax is doomed."

Hmmm, I doubt that any of us on the forum can really honestly say we will pay $599 for the K-500, when you can buy the K-30 for less money, RIGHT NOW. And that's with a lens. If you already have lenses (and I suspect EVERYONE on this forum does), you can buy a K-30 body for even less, RIGHT NOW.

Let us not forget that there is the K-50 which does have focus points, introduced for less than the K-30 originally was. As street prices fall, soon you will be able to buy the K-50 for less than the initial K-500 price. So, to those who claim they were about to pull the trigger but for the focus points, you might want to check that your pants are not on fire.

And do you think that maybe the reason Pentax is not offering the K-500 as a "body only" was to send a message that this camera is not intended for existing Pentaxians?
Absolutely. At least at this point, the K30 is available for a similar price as well and that would be an option for a sub-500 dollar camera till its stock is used up.

06-15-2013, 06:56 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by snostorm Quote
I think it should be remembered that the LED AF point indicators do not indicate focus confirmation. The green LCD hexagon at the bottom of the VF screen is the focus lock indicator. The red LED square also does not even come close to indicating the size of the AF sensor area. These are both points of significant confusion for a whole lot of folks.

After everything is said and done, probably a great majority of DSLR shooters end up using center point focusing, and even for those who want to manually select their focus point, with 11 focus points, it's not terribly challenging to keep track of the focus point used when any point is only two button presses away from center and center can be regained with a press of the OK button. The selected focus point can be confirmed on the LCD, but once familiar, it's really no problem selecting a focus point without taking your eye from the VF. Quite a few experienced shooters turn this feature off after a while as it can actually become annoying.

The importance of focus point indicators was completely overblown by "professional" reviews with the Kx, and I'm sure that they will do the same with the K500. A mistake?. . . maybe since perception becomes reality for those who don't have the wherewithall to think for themselves, but to my mind, this is a reasonable feature to cut in an entry level model. Using center point focusing, it's much better to train yourself to concentrate on the central ( ) etched in the VF screen (as it's a good approximation of the actual AF sensor area) and confirm the focus accuracy with your eye, IMO.

Worst case situation -- the model doesn't sell well, they do a fire sale, and the K500 sells like the Kx did in a similar situation (very well), adding to the user base. Since it's apparently not going to be sold in Japan, production numbers won't be incredibly high, so there shouldn't be much trouble selling them out.

Sorry, this is kind of a pet peeve with me. . .

Scott
I see what you're saying but it strikes me as inconsistent with the intended audience. A beginner isn't likely to start manually selecting focus points. Here's where I envision the problem -- the user is going to set the AF system to Auto 5 or Auto 11 but they won't know what it is the camera locks onto. It might not be the center spot.
If Pentax is going without LED indicators then shouldn't they disable the multi-point Auto AF option, too? Why not just have center spot focus only and then tell people to focus and recompose if the target is not in the center of the frame?
06-15-2013, 07:09 AM   #70
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How about those living in Europe, or other continents? Around here, the K-30 and K-50 have identical price tags, with the K-500 being cheaper. Indeed, the K-500 makes sense here.
But even if people would reject the K-500, the K-50 (K-30 as well, as long as it last) is amazing value.
06-15-2013, 07:15 AM   #71
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do we have any information about video feature? like manual control and things like that ?
06-15-2013, 07:17 AM - 3 Likes   #72
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Very interesting discussion here about technical details. However, technicalities aside, I think it is pretty obvious that K-500 is made NOT TO SELL. It should serve as a reference for comparisons, to have consumers look at it and then notice/try K-50 with just a few extra features for a few bucks more. The trick is, for an average consumer the biggest step it to decide to spend any money on a particular product. Once there, it is quite easy to decide to spend a little bit more. Happened to all of us many times, from ice cream and candies, to cars and houses.

In other words, K-500 primarily exists to maximize K-50 sales. If a few K-500s sell as well, not bad. Note that K-500 is zero risk to produce: the only real manufacturing difference is painting the model number - that is the only tool on the whole assembly line that is specific to each model!!! The rest is accomplished simply by skipping some steps during the assembly process and firmware configuration.

(Which bring us to the next interesting detail: why no gazillion color combinations for K-500? Well, notice that K-500 and K-50 model names have to be printed on those colorful plastic shells. But if K-500 full rainbow palette does not sell, which is the intent as mentioned, they'll have to throw shells away! Thus, print name labels onto full palette of something that is expected to sell: K-50!)

To understand what Pentax Ricoh is trying to do, I would highly recommend the following TED talk by Dan Gilbert:


Also, on a similar topic, good read is "Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions" by Dan Ariely:
Predictably Irrational - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So stay calm, everything is under control: Pentax is trying to become Canon!
06-15-2013, 07:24 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Absolutely.

but it's an ideal beginner feature...

...for a beginner camera.

The literature says there are AF points, this lets them know which ones were the subject of focus. That's a big assist.

That Pentax has classed this as a mid-range feature is very, very poor and will definitely cost sales as the competition now has it everywhere. Makes Pentax look cheap and out-of-touch with beginner needs.
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I see what you're saying but it strikes me as inconsistent with the intended audience. A beginner isn't likely to start manually selecting focus points. Here's where I envision the problem -- the user is going to set the AF system to Auto 5 or Auto 11 but they won't know what it is the camera locks onto. It might not be the center spot.
If Pentax is going without LED indicators then shouldn't they disable the multi-point Auto AF option, too? Why not just have center spot focus only and then tell people to focus and recompose if the target is not in the center of the frame?
Thank you for reminding me (as I had forgotten in all my excitement over THREE NEW CAMERAS) that Pentax is totally clueless, does nothing right and will never survive the drubbing they are about to take in the Oh-SO-KNOWING online review community.

Such a position rises to the level of Psalmody.
06-15-2013, 07:33 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I see what you're saying but it strikes me as inconsistent with the intended audience. A beginner isn't likely to start manually selecting focus points. Here's where I envision the problem -- the user is going to set the AF system to Auto 5 or Auto 11 but they won't know what it is the camera locks onto. It might not be the center spot.
If Pentax is going without LED indicators then shouldn't they disable the multi-point Auto AF option, too? Why not just have center spot focus only and then tell people to focus and recompose if the target is not in the center of the frame?
I hear what you're saying and don't disagree. But in some ways, all beginners are kinda doomed when using an APS-c sensor, regardless of brand. If you give someone visible focus points, the next question is, does the user know what to do with them, even if the user does notice them.

The live-view focus on the K-01 offers up 81 AF zones, and I suspect the K-30, K-50, and K-500 do as well. Also, live-view offers some benefits like face detection and focus peaking. So, while I hate to think this, it may be that the official recommendation is to use live view whenever the user runs into a difficult focus situation. A lot of entry-level shooters will be very comfortable with this.

Not to make this into another live-view/EVF vs. OVF discussion, but the previous X-90 bridge camera also has blink detection which works really well. Not sure if this was carried into the X-5, and for some reason it's not supported in the K-01. This capability would also be very familiar to entry-level shooters, if it were supported in the K-500.
06-15-2013, 07:37 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tanzer Quote
I hear what you're saying and don't disagree. But in some ways, all beginners are kinda doomed when using an APS-c sensor, regardless of brand. If you give someone visible focus points, the next question is, does the user know what to do with them, even if the user does notice them.
I don't think that question is about beginners use it or not. ALL other entry-level cameras have this little details and K-500 doesn't. This is going to affect score for K-500 in all professional reviews and I bet 90% of consumers don't read the entire review and decide solely based on final score.

Look at first impressions everywhere on internet and you'll find them mentioning lack of visible AF point in viewfinder. Even the first look video from pentaxforums mentions this. If it wasn't that important, nobody would be mentioning of it in FIRST LOOK.

Last edited by RonakG; 06-15-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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