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07-09-2013, 02:07 PM   #331
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Ahem.

Pentax is committed to the Q, K-mount and 645 mount. Period.

Ricoh is committed to both the Pentax brand and the Ricoh brand. Period.

Both statements were made in the last 90 days by the most senior Pentax executives, one directly to me and other PF members, one directly to the public.

No equivocation, no interpretation, no corporate doublespeak.

Anyone who doesn't hear what is being said either isn't listening or is an agitator.
Pentax is also commited to compact cameras. During the CP+ this year their managers of product development clearly said that too.
Three mounts and compacts. That is helluva lot; no other camera manufacturer develops cameras around three different mounts.

07-09-2013, 02:08 PM   #332
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The mirrorless market is doing wonderfully well.
As is the K-mount...
07-09-2013, 02:13 PM   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
A new lens mount would definitely start from 0.

Funny strategies are formulated here. Pentax should give up on whatever sales they can get, in order to start again, from zero. Pentax should solve the 3rd-party competition issue by changing its mount to accommodate an even larger 3rd-party base. Let's make a loss leader product to help selling Canon and Nikon lenses. The customers loves buying adapters and seeing the mount obsoleted. The mirrorless market is doing wonderfully well.
Yeah, they should really listen
Lol, it's amazing that "funny strategies" like the Sony NEX series, the Fuji X series, the Sigma DPM series, the Ricoh GR and GXR, the Canon EOS M, the Metabones project et al ever got off the ground. Must be a mirage

I wonder if anyone has asked Ricoh outright whether K-mount lenses work on digital FF with IBIS? And if so what the response was. If they're not saying or claim commercial confidence then it's reasonable to conclude the answer is very likely "no" or "even if they did, FF is a goody reserved for Ricoh-branded cameras". If that sounds unfair, customers are unfair. Anticipating the question marks over a brand and dispelling them is part of good marketing, I'd suggest.
07-09-2013, 02:19 PM   #334
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Ahem.

Pentax is committed to the Q, K-mount and 645 mount. Period.

Ricoh is committed to both the Pentax brand and the Ricoh brand. Period.

Both statements were made in the last 90 days by the most senior Pentax executives, one directly to me and other PF members, one directly to the public.

No equivocation, no interpretation, no corporate doublespeak.

Anyone who doesn't hear what is being said either isn't listening or is an agitator.
There's a lot of wisdom in those few words. Why don't we stop right here for now?

07-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Ahem.

Pentax is committed to the Q, K-mount and 645 mount. Period.

Ricoh is committed to both the Pentax brand and the Ricoh brand. Period.

Both statements were made in the last 90 days by the most senior Pentax executives, one directly to me and other PF members, one directly to the public.

No equivocation, no interpretation, no corporate doublespeak.

Anyone who doesn't hear what is being said either isn't listening or is an agitator.
+1,000!

QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
There's a lot of wisdom in those few words. Why don't we stop right here for now?
I concur.
07-09-2013, 04:34 PM - 1 Like   #336
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
If they offered an adapter for the K mount the way they did the M42 mount I think a lot of us would still stick with them even if they did change that and the name on the cams. I love M42 lenses. I just use them with the adapter. I like K mount lenses and I still would use them on a different body so long as it was possible with an adapter. Now if they really wanted to make my day? They'd do something like the M43 mount, make it completely universal but sell all their cams with the U, K and M42 adapters so regardless I could use whatever lens I wanted with their cams, no sweat, and still have a proper DSLR sensor and any kind of Pentax glass when I wanted it. I actually prefer DSLR format over the M43 format but I've always wanted a Pentax DSLR with a bigger sensor and a regular VF that I could do that with. Giving up the VF makes M43 less than ideal for me and so far I'm not crazy about their offerings in smaller format cameras anyway. I want the real deal, a DSLR that I can do that with. Of course that's not what they want, but I do!
Well, that all depends.....

A K-mount adapter would have to carry over all - and I mean ALL - the functions of my current lenses in order to be viable. It'd be catastrophic if auto-aperture didn't carry through, nor autofocus -- or if autofocus on screwdrive lenses (such as the Limited) would be sloooooow.

Seeing how an autofocus K-mount lens on the K->Q adaptor effectively neuters the lens, I'd really really want Pentax to not get into the "adapter building business", for that's one thing they're not particularly good at. At least, that's a business they've not shown to excel in recently.
07-09-2013, 04:45 PM   #337
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Pentax is just a brand name now and has been for a while. People who work for 'pentax' get their pay cheques from Ricoh.
07-09-2013, 04:52 PM   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Ask Sony how well AF adapters get along with mirrorless cameras.
What AF adapters ? I shoot MF with my PK-NEX adapters on my full frame and APS-C NEX cameras and don't have any problems with focus.

07-09-2013, 06:07 PM   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Ask Sony how well AF adapters get along with mirrorless cameras.
QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Judging by how many people own Sony cameras and lenses versus how many own Pentax cameras and lenses, I think we should listen to their answer to that question
QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
What AF adapters ? I shoot MF with my PK-NEX adapters on my full frame and APS-C NEX cameras and don't have any problems with focus.
This is exactly why this little echo chamber is so funny. Pentax would kill to have the distribution and sales numbers of Sony, and the idea of emulating something that objectively worked is straight up crazy. Dumb adapters literally saved the NEX system, and have continued to make it viable while Sony has comically failed to deliver a decent lens library. Sony screwed it up like they were trying to fail and they still move more cameras.

And the really hilarious thing is the point that always gets glossed over. Sony/Oly/Fuji casual switches easier by being mount agnostic... at the cost of functionality. Which if you like the body and want full functionality... drives lens sales. But hey, maybe Ricoh's clever strategy is a hoard of KA lenses and an eBay account. Chaching!
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Having a part of the K-mount lens market vs. having 100% of a zero-sized market, I wonder which is better...
It's not easy to launch a new mount, and profits won't come easily.

By the way, Sony put a lot of effort into marketing their products, so it's not a fair comparison. I'd rather say that, compared to their efforts, the results are somewhat lacking.
QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
You must really have no confidence in Ricoh to think that if they created a new lens mount it would generate 0% marketshare.
Assert that Pentax can make a compelling camera that moves lenses (considering that there are more m43 and E mount lens in Amazon's top 100 lens sellers than Pentax, and Fuji sells every XF lens they can make, it's not like it's never been done before) and Pentax gets an immediate vote of no confidence from the faithful. Funny, that.

So that means that Q mount is a zero sized market, correct? (I think this might be a fanboy infinite loop as the desire to defend the Q is weighed against the desire to argue the sacrosanctity of K-mount)
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Your best customer is the one who currently owns your product.

The worst is the one you think wants your product.
The one who currently owns your product might be your best customer. No reason he needs to be your only customer.

If your marketing strategy is holding on as tightly as possible to a tiny userbase, I have some Kodak stock you might be interested in. To quote Steve Jobs, "If you don’t cannibalize yourself, someone else will.”
07-09-2013, 06:21 PM   #340
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
This is exactly why this little echo chamber is so funny. Pentax would kill to have the distribution and sales numbers of Sony, and the idea of emulating something that objectively worked is straight up crazy. ”
Pentax is primarily a (D)SLR manufacturer (and will be more so in the future) and they sell more DSLR's than Sony....
07-09-2013, 06:28 PM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
Well, with that you are assuming pessimistically, that nobody would buy any pentax lens from then on. So you assume, that Pentax lenses qualities are so bad, and/or prices so high by now, that they couldn't compete with competition already today.

Even if you were right with this (which I'm sure you aren't, at least not to such a pessimistic extent), then this problem would also be a desastrous problem to Pentax, if they just leave things as they are.

I believe that the body makers' lens strategies and offerings (and 3rd partys' alternatives' availabilities) are critical for APS-C customers' decision making (on which system they join or leave), much more than the APS-C bodys themselves. It's very rare that someone declares abandoning his/her K-5IIs because he/she woudn't like this body any more (unless being forced by sudden special requirements, such as requiring tethering, or a pro flash system, or an instant FF upgrade, but all this isn't seen very often in forums really). Lens considerations seem more dominant overall.

Talking about lenses, I'm actually a bit worried about delays in Ricoh's lens arena as well; no updated lens roadmaps or otherwise declared strategies? Everything seems as if a bit stalled, for some while.
No, I am assuming that your mount is proprietary and if it is not and another supplier makes a better lens they reap the profit and you lose 3Q worth of business playing catch-up and go into the trash. That's why Canon, the most common SLR platform, makes it so hard to reverse engineer their lens mount. Some Sigma's are bricked by a Canon change.

Very few DSLR purchasers buy third party. I'd say less than 20% of the market dabbles in off-brand lenses. Those that do are hobbyists with $$$'s, but they are the fat of the system, not the flesh and bone. No manufacturer can survive making bodies so others can make lenses. They need at least 80% of their market to buy their brand lenses almost exclusively.

Everything is stalled and upgrades are incremental because:

1) Sensor development is peaking and the cost to make the next leap on APS-C is prohibitive. We're going to see longer product cycles emerging.

2) The DSLR market has nowhere to go, really. It's difficult to innovate on a legacy mount with an optical viewfinder. It's a very conservative market.

3) FF is chewing up the high-end forcing incremental downshifting, This (and a lower Yen) are why the K-50 is MSRP at launch US$50 lower than the K-30.

4) Innovation will come on the tech side. I think we'll see greater integration with mobile OS's, but also we'll see in-camera security systems with passwords and chips in lenses linked to the cloud for ownership. This will be a huge theft deterrence. Other concepts like that leveraging the electronic side will be more important than optics and bodies in the near future.

5) Sensor development will be mostly aimed at DR and especially CDAF improvements.
07-09-2013, 11:18 PM   #342
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
As is the K-mount...
Comparing a market with one system?

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Lol, it's amazing that "funny strategies" like the Sony NEX series, the Fuji X series, the Sigma DPM series, the Ricoh GR and GXR, the Canon EOS M, the Metabones project et al ever got off the ground. Must be a mirage
Let's say the NEX could be used as an example of a successful MILC system, but Sony did it with a lot of effort, the market is stagnating, and they didn't abandon their SLR mount. By the way, 30% of the MILC market barely equates with 7.5% of the DSLR one.
But your other examples... niche, niche, non-ILC Ricoh products, meh MILC, not a camera. FAIL.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I wonder if anyone has asked Ricoh outright whether K-mount lenses work on digital FF with IBIS? And if so what the response was. If they're not saying or claim commercial confidence then it's reasonable to conclude the answer is very likely "no" or "even if they did, FF is a goody reserved for Ricoh-branded cameras". If that sounds unfair, customers are unfair. Anticipating the question marks over a brand and dispelling them is part of good marketing, I'd suggest.
You mean your intention is to spread FUD as long as you can get away with it?
Fact: Sony was able to make it work, with its Alpha mount and legacy lenses. So the reasonable conclusion is a very likely "yes".
Fact: Ricoh clearly stated they will continue with the Pentax brand, and support all Pentax systems. There is no reason to assume that "FF is a goody reserved for Ricoh-branded cameras", this is something you made up.

QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
Assert that Pentax can make a compelling camera that moves lenses (considering that there are more m43 and E mount lens in Amazon's top 100 lens sellers than Pentax, and Fuji sells every XF lens they can make, it's not like it's never been done before) and Pentax gets an immediate vote of no confidence from the faithful. Funny, that.

So that means that Q mount is a zero sized market, correct? (I think this might be a fanboy infinite loop as the desire to defend the Q is weighed against the desire to argue the sacrosanctity of K-mount)
No, the assertion was something different: it's so much better to make cameras in another mount. Those who repeatedly claims so would never bother to bring any proofs (not that they can), that there are advantages which would more than compensate for having to start again from scratch.
Maybe for you it's a religious issue, but not for those who you're calling "fanboys". Do you think the K-mount is some sort of a "pagan" mount which needs to burn in hell for all eternity?
My point, the real one - not the strawmans - was clear: installed user base better than starting from scratch, K-mount most likely suitable even with SR, potential of growth on the larger DSLR market.
And the Q, sorry to disappoint you, but it's not the kind of system to take over from K-mount. It's all nice and "qute", it sells well only in some markets (it's properly marketed in Japan), and it avoids a direct confrontation with the other MILCs by having it's incredibly small size as an USP.

I'll end by quoting monochrome, who summarized the situation well:
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Ahem.

Pentax is committed to the Q, K-mount and 645 mount. Period.

Ricoh is committed to both the Pentax brand and the Ricoh brand. Period.

Both statements were made in the last 90 days by the most senior Pentax executives, one directly to me and other PF members, one directly to the public.

No equivocation, no interpretation, no corporate doublespeak.

Anyone who doesn't hear what is being said either isn't listening or is an agitator.
07-10-2013, 02:54 AM - 1 Like   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Ahem.

Pentax is committed to the Q, K-mount and 645 mount. Period.

Ricoh is committed to both the Pentax brand and the Ricoh brand. Period.

Both statements were made in the last 90 days by the most senior Pentax executives, one directly to me and other PF members, one directly to the public.

No equivocation, no interpretation, no corporate doublespeak.

Anyone who doesn't hear what is being said either isn't listening or is an agitator.
All true.

However, the problem is that we've not seen evidence of the above in terms of product releases or announcements. The K5II/S, K50/500, and Q7 are all refreshes of existing models. Welcome nonetheless, of course, and this doesn't mean the above is not true at all but it does reduce it's significance somewhat. What company is going to say it's uncommitted to the brands it owns?
07-10-2013, 03:05 AM   #344
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caat Quote
All true.

However, the problem is that we've not seen evidence of the above in terms of product releases or announcements. The K5II/S, K50/500, and Q7 are all refreshes of existing models. Welcome nonetheless, of course, and this doesn't mean the above is not true at all but it does reduce it's significance somewhat. What company is going to say it's uncommitted to the brands it owns?
Exactly! Actions speak louder then words. If we could believe everything companies tell us...

There are some completely new products since the takeover though. The 18-250 ultrazoom. Oh no, that's just a rebrand. Maybe the super tele? The pinhole lens cap?
07-10-2013, 03:23 AM   #345
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Exactly! Actions speak louder then words. If we could believe everything companies tell us...

There are some completely new products since the takeover though. The 18-250 ultrazoom. Oh no, that's just a rebrand. Maybe the super tele? The pinhole lens cap?
What really is new?

06 lens for the Q system. 07 mount shield lens. Not sure if they had them planned during the Hoya, maybe just vaguely.
MX-1 .. maybe partly, because the lens is a third party design, components too. I believe design of the MX-1 was decided upon after the K-01 feedback.
The new GR, I think it is new; maybe the first baby from the marriage. Although we have no confirmed evidence, it is quite possible that joint teams were working on it since April 2012. They had one year to complete it.

Pentaxians are anxious, because what is served to Pentax users as the top of the range, or current "flagship", is now surpassed by Canon's and Nikon's lower middle range in many areas. And that is even without professional grade bodies, which don't exist in the Pentax land.

So they have their hands full. They know they must deliver at least 2-3 DSLRs above the current K50. Not a small task.
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