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07-10-2013, 09:02 AM - 1 Like   #361
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
This is a big reason why mirrorless sales have stalled; though more compact, they offer . . . consistently worse low-light shooting.
I have found the A50/1.2 on a K-01,
with focus peaking using up-to-date firmware,
to be a very effective tool for low-light shooting.

07-10-2013, 09:10 AM   #362
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Just for reference, Sony's FF a99 with EVF, PDAF on sensor, tilty-flippy LCD and some WR lists for $2800, and they don't have to buy their sensor (and EVF?) from someone else.
07-10-2013, 09:30 AM   #363
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
I have found the A50/1.2 on a K-01,
with focus peaking using up-to-date firmware,
to be a very effective tool for low-light shooting.
My problem isn't so much LOW light use, but BRIGHT light use. My pupils will contract in response to the ambient light and I can't adequately see the LCD panel. With a viewfinder this isn't an issue because my eye is shielded from ambient light levels. So my choice becomes putting a cloth over the camera and my head like a view camera, buying a funky viewing hood with eyepiece that goes over the LCD panel, or attaching some kind of sport finder. By the time I deal with any of those options, I might as well have gone for the dSLR.
07-10-2013, 01:25 PM   #364
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Jim, do you have the screen brightness cranked up to the max?
I've found that works for me, sometimes in conjunction with shading the screen with my hand.
And of course the K-01 will sometimes stop down the lens on its on,
but hitting the OK button twice (zoom in and out again) will open it up for a second or two.

07-10-2013, 01:29 PM   #365
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Well, very happy to notice this thread is concentrating on FF / "the Arlésienne" now

A good derivation once again.
07-10-2013, 01:39 PM   #366
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
If Pentax produces a FF mirrorless camera, it is true that they will have to start from scratch, but so will any prospective competitors (likely to be Sony at first). If you are in last place, you have little to lose from restarting the race. Just like APS-C mirrorless has allowed Fuji back into the game, FF mirrorless could do the same for Pentax.
Sony would still have the advantage of using the same NEX mount, thus sharing lenses with the larger APS-C NEX userbase. That's significant, as it makes launching new lenses easier.
QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
If they make a FF DSLR, they will have to start almost from scratch - not many of their existing lenses would meet modern expectations. On the other hand, their competitors have had a huge head start on in terms of lenses, technology and user base. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I can't see what Pentax could add to a FF DSLR to lure customers away from the other brands. I don't think the body colours will work here! And if they have any intention to increase their market share, they have to attract people away from other systems.
Sorry, but there is a big difference between starting from scratch and starting "almost from scratch", which actually means having several FF lenses already, plus the 3rd-party ones, and an APS-C user base which would buy FF lenses just because they would work well on their cameras, and users which would see the new FF system as a natural migration path.
QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I think recent developments in PDAF on the sensor make it likely that DSLRs will be in decline within a few years. Once mirrorless cameras outperform DSLRs in terms of AF performance, I think it is the beginning of the end for the mirror. So to start developing a system based on that technology seems a real mistake to me.
Even if true (we'll see that), it will take time for it to happen. Of course, Pentax should adapt to the market conditions, but now the DSLR market is 5 times larger and it's no sign MILCs are closing the gap.
By the way, gains made with the K-mount in the immediate future would only help making a MILC system possible.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
That is offensive and you are going on the ignore list. I've had enough of this constant fanboy bullying from you.
Calling people "fanboys" is indeed much easier than to explain for example why FF+SR would work for Sony, but not for Pentax; or what part of the "we will keep using the Pentax brand" means "FF is a goody reserved for Ricoh-branded cameras". Or accept they're baseless.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Sony already started from scratch with the RX-1.
Not the same, that's not a system camera; but, the R&D with it is useful.

Last edited by Kunzite; 07-10-2013 at 02:07 PM.
07-10-2013, 02:01 PM   #367
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
And I'm still waiting to hear a convincing reason why a Pentax FF DSLR would be more attractive to customers than a Canon, Nikon or Sony.
One could ask the same for any Pentax camera, including Pentax APS-C DSLRs or a Pentax FF MILC. Neither changing the brand or the mount (which we already know it won't happen) would help finding a better answer.

QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I am comparing Pentax of all flavors, of which i have met no one in person besides myself that owns one, to Sony, where you can't go to a big event or zoo, or amusement park, etc without running into people that don't have a NEX.
So for people to say that Pentax should ignore what Sony is doing, is silly because it is obvious that Sony is doing something right.
That's a bit of a strawman, as I was talking about the MILC market. Indeed, it's the MILC market itself which limits the potential growth, if Pentax were to bet its future on it. Fighting 3 established players on a small, stagnating market without the support of your loyal user base; does it sounds like a winning strategy to you?
Sony, by the way, it appears they're selling more SLTs than NEX.
07-10-2013, 02:32 PM   #368
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
Jim, do you have the screen brightness cranked up to the max?
I've found that works for me, sometimes in conjunction with shading the screen with my hand.
And of course the K-01 will sometimes stop down the lens on its on,
but hitting the OK button twice (zoom in and out again) will open it up for a second or two.
The only way screen brightness will help my complaint is if it is cranked up as bright as the ambient light. This is no problem indoors, but outside in the sun this is not possible. The issue isn't really screen brightness; it is the pupil size of my eyes. My pupils will contract in bright sunshine and the LCD doesn't have a chance. To explain this another way, it is like stopping a lens down to f/22 and then trying to manually focus on something in the deep shadows.

The only solution is to not directly expose my eyes to ambient light - sure there are several ways to do this, but the easiest way is with an integrated viewfinder. That's is why I will never own something like the K-01. I'm not knocking K-01 owners; it just doesn't work for me.

07-10-2013, 04:29 PM   #369
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Sony, by the way, it appears they're selling more SLTs than NEX.
NEX is very popular in Asia while a more traditional SLR style works in North America. Europe is about 50/50 but has a much larger installed DSLR user base.
07-10-2013, 04:48 PM   #370
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Out of curiosity (and sorry if this has already been discussed elsewhere), if Sony cameras are selling so well (as they appear to be), but if Sony imaging is not profitable, are they pricing poorly, or are compact cameras dragging them down, or were they expecting lens sales to offset cheap bodies, or ??? Selling a lot of cameras is great, but how long will Life Insurance / Media cover the cost?

I'm reminded of the old joke: "How can we make a profit if we lose money on every sale?" Answer: "Volume!"
07-10-2013, 04:59 PM - 1 Like   #371
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
Out of curiosity (and sorry if this has already been discussed elsewhere), if Sony cameras are selling so well (as they appear to be), but if Sony imaging is not profitable, are they pricing poorly, or are compact cameras dragging them down, or were they expecting lens sales to offset cheap bodies, or ??? Selling a lot of cameras is great, but how long will Life Insurance / Media cover the cost?

I'm reminded of the old joke: "How can we make a profit if we lose money on every sale?" Answer: "Volume!"
\
A short answer: forum members don't have a clue about sales data or market share data.
All you read here is pure speculation.

For example, many Pentaxians have believed (and still believe) that K-01 and Q sell poorly, that Pentax is wasting time on them.
However, according to official statements (I have personally read or heard three such statements) confirmed with physical proofs too (K-01 resumed production again, we have three Q bodies already, new lenses for Q as well), it seems the opposite is true. However, we only have a vague idea that sums up in a sentence "In fact they sell."

In regards to Sony's cameras and their strategy, I believe we have even less insights and relevant data. Or, data may be there, but it slips below our radars of attention. This is Pentax Forums after all, not Sony Forums.
07-10-2013, 05:20 PM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
\
This is Pentax Forums after all, not Sony Forums.
Sometimes I wonder, since I mostly hang out in the K-01 forum, where every thread eventually has an (unfavorable) comparison to the NEX.

Also, so many of these discussions seem to revolve around which competitor's product Pentax should duplicate - at a lower price, of course.

Last edited by THoog; 07-10-2013 at 06:46 PM.
07-10-2013, 07:13 PM - 1 Like   #373
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The starting price for an FF sensor but supporting electronics pushes $700 alone. The sensors apparently push $400 just for the silicon imprint.

By the time you add it all in you're well above $1,400 body alone. Now you need to add profit, distribution, marketing, etc.


Great explanation of why Pentax hsn't done a FF yet and actually might not do one any time soon.

But never expect logic, reality, the facts of business and the requirement of a profit to convince anyone.
07-10-2013, 08:05 PM   #374
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The starting price for an FF sensor but supporting electronics pushes $700 alone. The sensors apparently push $400 just for the silicon imprint.
By the time you add it all in you're well above $1,400 body alone. Now you need to add profit, distribution, marketing, etc.


Great explanation of why Pentax hsn't done a FF yet and actually might not do one any time soon.
But never expect logic, reality, the facts of business and the requirement of a profit to convince anyone.
/
/
By that logic, the new GR should be selling at least at 30% higher price, like everyone else's large sensor camera. Because others have done some maths, aren't they? Fuji, Nikon, Leica, they use calculators too.
But it isn't — brand new GR is cheapest of all large sensor DCs.
How come? In a normal world of interchangeable lens cameras, one would be paying that same price for the amazing GR lens alone. Something inside Ricoh Imaging — a process, an investment, certain plan about the entire lineup, a wider picture, whatever! — makes it possible. Thus I would not dismiss some similar scenario for the FF. They may really and positively surprise.

Last edited by Uluru; 07-10-2013 at 08:13 PM.
07-10-2013, 08:31 PM   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
/
/
By that logic, the new GR should be selling at least at 30% higher price, like everyone else's large sensor camera. Because others have done some maths, aren't they? Fuji, Nikon, Leica, they use calculators too.
But it isn't — brand new GR is cheapest of all large sensor DCs.
How come? In a normal world of interchangeable lens cameras, one would be paying that same price for the amazing GR lens alone. Something inside Ricoh Imaging — a process, an investment, certain plan about the entire lineup, a wider picture, whatever! — makes it possible. Thus I would not dismiss some similar scenario for the FF. They may really and positively surprise.
Ricoh priced the GR they way they always have - released at the realistic street price instead of an unrealistic list price that immediately gets discounted* - and it will stay there for 18 months. There's no motivation to "wait six months until the price comes down" before you buy this camera.

The surprise might be - similar to Pentax adopting Ricoh's generous FW Update Policy - that Pentax adopts Ricoh's Pricing Model for its future new releases.

It isn't magic - it is just a business philosophy, implemented as a pricing strategy..

* which unrealistic Dealer Agreement supposedly supports smaller B&M stores, but it backfires when large retaillers immediately discount heavily; then you get the attempted infuriating UPP
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