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07-12-2013, 11:03 AM   #406
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I don't believe in such a long-term impact

The facts to date show evidence that if nothing serious is announced by end 2013, RICOH will have brought/done/issued less PENTAX significant novelties than HOYA did in the same preceding period...
OK it takes time to prepare and release new products, but higher stakes should have brought brighter results... or at least clearer corporate and marketing communication


Last edited by Zygonyx; 07-12-2013 at 11:09 AM.
07-12-2013, 11:07 AM   #407
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
I never have been reading anything else then Cosina being the subcontractor for Zeiss lenses. The last time I Google-researched this more extensively was when I was iterested in the RX100 as pocketable second cam. Never saw a guarantee though, that Cosina is the exclusive producer for all contemporary Zeiss branded (consumer level) lenses. These subcontracting relationships could change any time anyway, and most companies seem to avoid advertising these setups too much.
The Zeiss ZA lenses are manufactured by third parties to Zeiss standards, much like Panasonic's Leica branded lenses.

QuoteQuote:
"ZEISS lenses for Sony digital cameras are developed by lens designers at the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen, Germany. This includes all required quality assurance measures (test methods, test criteria, test devices, test procedures, lens performance target values, etc.) The lenses are then made in a lens production facility jointly chosen by Sony and Carl Zeiss. Quality assurance specialists from the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen implement the ZEISS quality assurance system in the chosen facility. Many ZEISS optic measuring systems are installed. Carl Zeiss audits the lens production areas on a regular basis.

All these measures ensure that ZEISS lenses in Sony digital cameras meet the expectations demanding users associate with ZEISS lenses."
07-12-2013, 11:12 AM   #408
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
I never have been reading anything else then Cosina being the subcontractor for Zeiss lenses.
Those are not Zeiss lenses, but Zeiss-branded (and probably designed) lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
Anyway, since I regard the RX100's optical Performance very high, I would be quite excited if Ricoh wins Cosina for doing Pentax lenses for Ricoh. I'm not so keen on Tokina (Hoya's Partner for the recent Hoya era lenses, if I remember right).
I would rather have Pentax making Pentax lenses
I'm not very keen on partnerships which would make top Pentax lenses available to other systems, at a lower prices.

QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
I believe from my interpretations of the circumstantial evidences, that Hoya abandoned these already, so that there's nothing left for Ricoh to 'not give up'. I don't mean the Vietnamese lens assembly site, where parts (produced whereever by whomever) are assembled. I don't know if Hoya created and owned that as a replacement for having abandoned the Pentax Corp owned factory sites, or if this Vietnamese site is operated by a Vietnamese sub-contractor.
You should check the "circumstantial evidences" again; the Vietnamese site is Pentax' and was so for quite some time. Pentax is indeed capable of making their own lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
With that I mean the 3rd party lens supplier industry, where Sigma and Tamron represent the few left in this industry not having stopped producing for Pentax-K under their respective own brand, but Tamron seemed to have stopped offering newer lenses for Pentax K (including interesting ones, for which there's a demand evident in forums), and Sigma is very slow and shows delays when offering their new lenses also for Pentax K. Both is a mutually consistent indication, that they seem loosing interest in Pentax-K coverage, i.e. regard them as "a sinking ship" from their very own business perspective (at least Tamron serves here more obviously as an early indicator).
Please keep in mind:
- that any (recent) decrease in 3rd-party lens support happened under Hoya, not under Ricoh.
- Sigma is supporting Pentax, and their latest lens, the 18-35 f/1.8, will be also offered in K-mount. Of course, they prioritize larger volumes mounts. This means they don't regard them as a "sinking ship".

QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
Yep, we'll see. Would be great for us Pentax users, if we'll see an upwards trend. This won't be reflected in their next financial P&L statement(s), and nobody should expect this.
We'll see it.
07-12-2013, 11:19 AM   #409
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
OK it takes time to prepare and release new products, but higher stakes should have brought brighter results... or at least clearer corporate and marketing communication
I think you just proved my point. Hoya wasn't as awful as we like to believe. Ricoh hasn't yet been the savior.

Hoya probably left the cupboard bare. There was an earthquake and tsunami. Ricoh had its first financial loss as a public company (28 years) - something their corporate ethos was not prepared to handle well. That probably put Pentax plans on hold (actually, it absolutely did put Pentax plans on hold. That is public information).

So starting from a bare cupboard with not-enough capital, not enough people and a global camera distribution structure in serious disarray, whatever recovery they get out-the-gate doesn't look like much.

We really won't know the answers to these questions for several years - which is longer than the Patience Horizon of anyone on this Forum. Including me, probably.

07-12-2013, 11:19 AM   #410
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
AFAIK Hoya expected 20% Return on Invested Capital to retain a business line. Cameras in general and Pentax in particular have (I think) 8-10% ROIC, so cameras was not a desireable business for Hoya at all.

We love to hate Hoya, but in fact Hoya cleaned up Pentax's operations and SSG&A expenses and made Pentax ready for sale to another company, while maintaing at least some of the product pipeline under their stewardship. And did that during the global fincial crisis and the Tsunami.

They could have just closed it, sold the patents and we'd be long gone by now. $125,000,000 isn't chump change, but it isn't all THAT much money in global finance, either - tax writeoff money, at worst.

Let's face facts. Pentax Camera has been damaged goods for at least 15 years, if not 25.
Indeed, Hoya was operating on a significantly larger margins. I'm not sure Pentax Imaging Business did 8-10%...

Hoya and Sparx are part of the reason Pentax lost their independence (the other part being Pentax themselves, who were vulnerable, unable to convince their shareholders they could continue on their own). Disrupting their operations right after the K10D's launch (a product which had the potential to bring them back in the game), cost cutting and downsizing at the expense of market share, I'd say there was some harm induced.
However, I agree with you not everything they did was bad.

QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
The facts to date show evidence that if nothing serious is announced by end 2013, RICOH will have brought/done/issued less PENTAX significant novelties than HOYA did in the same preceding period...
OK it takes time to prepare and release new products, but higher stakes should have brought brighter results... or at least clearer corporate and marketing communication
I'm not worried
They might be the slow turtle, but that's OK if they'll win the race
07-12-2013, 11:48 AM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The lens hiatus can be explained by the two change of owners in the last years that oviously must have had an impact on plans and schedules.
I would partially agree with this, but also [point out that resources were aimed at the 645D and the Q.

IMO 50% of the headache is how to accommodate a long-term K-mount plan combining both APS-C and FF. They cannot make orphan lenses or they will lose a certain % of their installed market.
07-12-2013, 12:18 PM   #412
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
We really won't know the answers to these questions for several years - which is longer than the Patience Horizon of anyone on this Forum. Including me, probably.
I think my patience is running very low. The new Canon 70D is looking better, even if I have to get new glass.
07-12-2013, 12:32 PM   #413
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
We really won't know the answers to these questions for several years - which is longer than the Patience Horizon of anyone on this Forum. Including me, probably.
This doesn't mean we'll have to wait several years for new, better products - far from it. I read monochrome's words as being about their long-term plans, e.g. will Ricoh Imaging become a strong #3, playing on the same level as Canon and Nikon?

07-12-2013, 12:52 PM   #414
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
IMO 50% of the headache is how to accommodate a long-term K-mount plan combining both APS-C and FF. They cannot make orphan lenses or they will lose a certain % of their installed market.
Yes - and we know they're trying to grow the installed base to keep the thrid-party makers in the K-mount. Long-term K-mount plan, plus how to continue IBIS for a FF sensor.

If they abandon IBIS (for FF a possibility) they would need a COMPLETE set of AI/IS/SDM FF lenses at launch to make a new FF mount, which would take forever - and keep K-mount with IBIS as the APSc mount (the volume mount, for now) - and use a lot of the FF body technology (AF, frame rate, buffer, ISO, Menus, whatever) on APSc to keep the K-mount users in the brand. Not completely impossible, but . . .

Canon I think did it (I don't know the complete history). Nikon sort of did it but maintained at least some compatibility.

I guess it is possible they are just frozen - can't make a decision - but I think that's less likely than something else.
07-12-2013, 03:45 PM   #415
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
This doesn't mean we'll have to wait several years for new, better products - far from it. I read monochrome's words as being about their long-term plans, e.g. will Ricoh Imaging become a strong #3, playing on the same level as Canon and Nikon?
I think they have a more immediate short term tactical issue vs a long term strategy issue.. Product announcements are needed to keep the money rolling. I like that that they announced both the K-50 and K-500, however, is it enough to bring in new blood and to stop the bleeding of the current base.
07-12-2013, 03:57 PM   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by 7samurai Quote
stop the bleeding of the current base.
I think the base is probably bled out by now. I mean, my number here is 5967 and I hardly see anyone posting today who was when I started.
07-12-2013, 04:06 PM   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I guess it is possible they are just frozen - can't make a decision - but I think that's less likely than something else.
I suspect they have a plan, but is it the right plan. Pentax is a very different camera company than Ricoh. I think they are still learning that.
07-12-2013, 04:07 PM   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I think the base is probably bled out by now. I mean, my number here is 5967 and I hardly see anyone posting today who was when I started.
Moderators drove them away.
07-12-2013, 04:15 PM   #419
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I think the base is probably bled out by now. I mean, my number here is 5967 and I hardly see anyone posting today who was when I started.
that's not very encouraging.

I wish they didn't pull out the focus lights on the K-500. That's going to make it really hard to sell against the competition. Differences that can be noticed by newbies are going to stand out more than unseen features.
07-12-2013, 04:37 PM   #420
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QuoteOriginally posted by 7samurai Quote
I wish they didn't pull out the focus lights on the K-500.
I wish they'd put dual wheels on everything and stop burying M under TAv - but I guess that's a differentiating feature.
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