Ricoh announces company name change - no more Pentax Ricoh Imaging, just Ricoh.

Raffwal · 07-07-2013, 01:21 PM

What about full frame cameras? How come nobody's talking about them???

Parallax · 07-07-2013, 02:30 PM

We had a thread on that a while back. It didn't go very far. Not much interest I guess.

Biro · 07-07-2013, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by jeff knight

Pentax has gone from being a venerable and well respected brand name to just being a product line. I wouldn't be surprised if the new cameras currently bearing the name Pentax are eventually renamed Ricoh-Pentax like Canon Eos. Even if this doesn't happen Pentax is now a product line already and no longer exists as an independent brand.

Well, in all honesty, Pentax has essentially always been a product line. In addition to changes in the corporate ownership of the Pentax brand over the years (Zeiss Ikon, Asahi, Hoya and Ricoh), I can personally remember when the actual cameras were branded "Asahi Pentax" and "Honeywell Pentax," at least in the U.S. So none of this seems like all that big a deal to me. Just keep making the cameras and make them good.

**RussV** · 07-08-2013, 01:06 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Biro

Just keep making the cameras and make them good.

If they make good cameras which are backwards compatible with K mount lenses that's all we need to take pictures. Which is why all of us bought a camera in the first place. If they stop printing 'Pentax' on the body it will be a shame but not the end of the world.

People seem to forget Ricoh made some innovative and good value K mount cameras back in the manual focus & film days.

Zygonyx · 07-08-2013, 09:30 AM

Agreed, but nothing seems to be secured in this direction : wait and see...

briancornerbrook · 07-08-2013, 07:34 PM - **1 Like**

As long as they keep the k mount I'll be fine regardless of name.... But switch the mount and that gives me a reason to consider another brand in my next camera which will be a full frame... I'll stick with my K5 IIs and k lenses until then.

Clavius · 07-09-2013, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by RussV

If they make good cameras which are backwards compatible with K mount lenses that's all we need to take pictures.

It is actually possible to take pictures with cameras that have no K-mount. It's true, I saw some online.

Originally posted by RussV

People seem to forget Ricoh made some innovative and good value K mount cameras back in the manual focus & film days.

Yes, they discontinued using the K-mount already once before, so...

What if discontinueing the K-mount solves a lot of R&D issues? What if that's the only thing that's in the way of Pentax FF? Seriously, discontinueing the K-mount isn't the end of the world either. It only means that part of the userbase, those who sitting on top of heap of 30+ year old glass will be disappointed. But those users don't bring any money to Pentax either, so they won't be missed.

Frater · 07-09-2013, 03:54 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Clavius

It is actually possible to take pictures with cameras that have no K-mount

It would be a great idea, if Pentax switches to a new "raw" mount, which adapts to either K mounts or other mounts (Canon and/or Nikon) with broader lens supply, including from Sigma, Tamron, Tokina etc), with the help of an adapter system.
Any adapters for such 3rd party mounts may not be cheap, because they would bear licensing costs (and development effort for their lens protocols) but I'm sure many would be willing and happy to pay such a premium.

Advantage to users: obvious and self-explanatory.

Advantage to Pentax:

less users, including those economically valuable DSLR market enterers, which would not consider the Pentax bodys just because of the limitations of lens choice, or because of the actual price/quality ratios are not satisfying to them.
Less 'old' pentax users would leave the Pentax system for the same reasons.

Disadvantage to Pentax:

Pentax (actually Ricoh of course) is making a huge profit margins on (most of) their lenses. Ricoh woudn't want to threat this source of (profitable) income.
For example the Limiteds: only a very few lens elements, lens designs wich are decades old thus license free, have simple sperical-only shapes, and only small diameters. I'm sure they must be dirt-cheap in production, but are sold for 3-digit-amounts, instead of 2-digit-amounts

No one will blame a company for striving for profitability like that (most printer makers do that since ever: cheap printers but overpriced ink), but that has to be balanced against the threat of DSLR joiners not joining Pentax-K, or Pentax 'oldies' leaving Pentax.

If I was managing the camera division of Ricoh, I would weigh the latter risks higher, esp. for the long run, and would advise my engineers to develop a modular, adapter based mount system.

Unfortunately, good managers are rare. Many are only as smart as the ones in Dilbert cartoons, and very few are like e.g. Steve Jobs. That's the reason why many businesses go out of business eventually.

mecrox · 07-09-2013, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

It is actually possible to take pictures with cameras that have no K-mount. It's true, I saw some online.

Yes, they discontinued using the K-mount already once before, so...

What if discontinueing the K-mount solves a lot of R&D issues? What if that's the only thing that's in the way of Pentax FF? Seriously, discontinueing the K-mount isn't the end of the world either. It only means that part of the userbase, those who sitting on top of heap of 30+ year old glass will be disappointed. But those users don't bring any money to Pentax either, so they won't be missed.

I don't see them doing that even if K-mount cannot support the kind of FF they want. They can continue with it, albeit somewhat in legacy mode, for as long as they can sell enough APS-C cameras with the K-mount's flange distance. That could be for quite a few years. In the meantime, they can always offer an adapter come crop mode for K-mount users on whatever new FF mount comes out, if such a thing is on the cards. Just discontinuing the K-mount before the income stream is running dry wouldn't make any business sense? That said, if such a matter were handled clumsily Ricoh would certainly lose an awful lot of Pentax customers and the gig could implode quite quickly. Come the time, many Pentax customers would upgrade to a non-Ricoh brand out of sheer irritation.

For what it's worth, I was on a photography workshop this weekend. Fourteen of us went out but I think only three of us were using classic DSLRs - two APS-C and one FF. Everyone else was using MILCs or compacts or, in one case, an iPhone. Someone else said they had an old FF DSLR but it was too big and heavy to lug around London especially on a hot day and these days they hardly used it.

Imho, if K-mount has a problem it's not that it's too small for FF. It's that it's too big for the kind of cameras people like to use now. A Nikon 1, Fuji X10 or Canon EOS M - that's the size of camera an awful lot of folks consider big enough these days. And if Ricoh do some marketing, the new Q might likely join them.

magkelly · 07-09-2013, 05:25 AM

If they offered an adapter for the K mount the way they did the M42 mount I think a lot of us would still stick with them even if they did change that and the name on the cams. I love M42 lenses. I just use them with the adapter. I like K mount lenses and I still would use them on a different body so long as it was possible with an adapter. Now if they really wanted to make my day? They'd do something like the M43 mount, make it completely universal but sell all their cams with the U, K and M42 adapters so regardless I could use whatever lens I wanted with their cams, no sweat, and still have a proper DSLR sensor and any kind of Pentax glass when I wanted it. I actually prefer DSLR format over the M43 format but I've always wanted a Pentax DSLR with a bigger sensor and a regular VF that I could do that with. Giving up the VF makes M43 less than ideal for me and so far I'm not crazy about their offerings in smaller format cameras anyway. I want the real deal, a DSLR that I can do that with. Of course that's not what they want, but I do!

rawr · 07-09-2013, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

It's that it's too big for the kind of cameras people like to use now. A Nikon 1, Fuji X10 or Canon EOS M - that's the size of camera an awful lot of folks consider big enough these days.

Hmmm. It depends. I just shot a gig tonight with my K-5 where some geeky girl asked me afterwards 'what sort of a camera was that?'. She initally thought it was an Olympus OM-D. She thought it couldn't be any other SLR because it was too small.

**Aristophanes** · 07-09-2013, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Frater

It would be a great idea, if Pentax switches to a new "raw" mount, which adapts to either K mounts or other mounts (Canon and/or Nikon) with broader lens supply, including from Sigma, Tamron, Tokina etc), with the help of an adapter system.

Dumb idea.

The money in the industry is NOT made from the camera bodies, but from the lenses.

This idea would gut Ricoh's Pentax revenues to about 1/3 of their gross over a few years, destroying the company.

Ricoh tried the same thig with their M-mount GXR. Ricoh doesn't make lenses not being an optical company. Pentax is an optical company. They make lenses and design cameras to work with their optics.

**Aristophanes** · 07-09-2013, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

Imho, if K-mount has a problem it's not that it's too small for FF. It's that it's too big for the kind of cameras people like to use now. A Nikon 1, Fuji X10 or Canon EOS M - that's the size of camera an awful lot of folks consider big enough these days.

DSLR's are still outselling the mirrorless models about 4:1. Mirrorless sales have stalled faster than DSLR's for reasons having to do with low value of IQ and total system capabilities compared to the fast-focusing DSLR.

Most mirrorless systems produce images that are a step above snapshot, but not much. Creative control over the technical image requires more and the versatility of the DSLR is still unmatched.

It's a fractured industry which is great for choice and competition.

**boriscleto** · 07-09-2013, 09:35 AM

Why does everyone seem to think the focal flange distance of the K-mount is too long? Nikon seems to be doing just fine with a focal flange distance 1.04mm longer.

junyo · 07-09-2013, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Dumb idea.

The money in the industry is NOT made from the camera bodies, but from the lenses.

This idea would gut Ricoh's Pentax revenues to about 1/3 of their gross over a few years, destroying the company.

Ricoh tried the same thig with their M-mount GXR. Ricoh doesn't make lenses not being an optical company. Pentax is an optical company. They make lenses and design cameras to work with their optics.

Except what portion of the K-mount lenses in any given year are new, Pentax made lenses, versus 3rd party and used? The eleventy bizillion K mount lenses on eBay are already gutting lens revenue. The fact that large swathes of the new manufacture K mount lens collection is made by Sigma and Tamron is gutting lens revenue. A new mount would be a monopoly market until third parties showed up. The body needs to be a compelling lost leader to drive lens sales, with a K-mount adapter to lessen the sticker stock and aid current user retention.

07-08-2013, 09:30 AM	#305
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Agreed, but nothing seems to be secured in this direction : wait and see... Last edited by Zygonyx; 07-08-2013 at 10:44 AM.

07-09-2013, 03:54 AM - 1 Like	#308
Frater Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 143	Originally posted by Clavius It is actually possible to take pictures with cameras that have no K-mount It would be a great idea, if Pentax switches to a new "raw" mount, which adapts to either K mounts or other mounts (Canon and/or Nikon) with broader lens supply, including from Sigma, Tamron, Tokina etc), with the help of an adapter system. Any adapters for such 3rd party mounts may not be cheap, because they would bear licensing costs (and development effort for their lens protocols) but I'm sure many would be willing and happy to pay such a premium. Advantage to users: obvious and self-explanatory. Advantage to Pentax: less users, including those economically valuable DSLR market enterers, which would not consider the Pentax bodys just because of the limitations of lens choice, or because of the actual price/quality ratios are not satisfying to them. Less 'old' pentax users would leave the Pentax system for the same reasons. Disadvantage to Pentax: Pentax (actually Ricoh of course) is making a huge profit margins on (most of) their lenses. Ricoh woudn't want to threat this source of (profitable) income. For example the Limiteds: only a very few lens elements, lens designs wich are decades old thus license free, have simple sperical-only shapes, and only small diameters. I'm sure they must be dirt-cheap in production, but are sold for 3-digit-amounts, instead of 2-digit-amounts No one will blame a company for striving for profitability like that (most printer makers do that since ever: cheap printers but overpriced ink), but that has to be balanced against the threat of DSLR joiners not joining Pentax-K, or Pentax 'oldies' leaving Pentax. If I was managing the camera division of Ricoh, I would weigh the latter risks higher, esp. for the long run, and would advise my engineers to develop a modular, adapter based mount system. Unfortunately, good managers are rare. Many are only as smart as the ones in Dilbert cartoons, and very few are like e.g. Steve Jobs. That's the reason why many businesses go out of business eventually. Last edited by Frater; 07-09-2013 at 04:12 AM.

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07-07-2013, 01:21 PM	#301
Raffwal Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The North Posts: 879	What about full frame cameras? How come nobody's talking about them???

07-07-2013, 02:30 PM	#302
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	We had a thread on that a while back. It didn't go very far. Not much interest I guess.

07-07-2013, 04:18 PM	#303
Biro Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,200	Originally posted by jeff knight Pentax has gone from being a venerable and well respected brand name to just being a product line. I wouldn't be surprised if the new cameras currently bearing the name Pentax are eventually renamed Ricoh-Pentax like Canon Eos. Even if this doesn't happen Pentax is now a product line already and no longer exists as an independent brand. Well, in all honesty, Pentax has essentially always been a product line. In addition to changes in the corporate ownership of the Pentax brand over the years (Zeiss Ikon, Asahi, Hoya and Ricoh), I can personally remember when the actual cameras were branded "Asahi Pentax" and "Honeywell Pentax," at least in the U.S. So none of this seems like all that big a deal to me. Just keep making the cameras and make them good.

07-08-2013, 01:06 AM - 1 Like	#304
RussV Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 300	Originally posted by Biro Just keep making the cameras and make them good. If they make good cameras which are backwards compatible with K mount lenses that's all we need to take pictures. Which is why all of us bought a camera in the first place. If they stop printing 'Pentax' on the body it will be a shame but not the end of the world. People seem to forget Ricoh made some innovative and good value K mount cameras back in the manual focus & film days.

07-08-2013, 07:34 PM - 1 Like	#306
briancornerbrook New Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 22	As long as they keep the k mount I'll be fine regardless of name.... But switch the mount and that gives me a reason to consider another brand in my next camera which will be a full frame... I'll stick with my K5 IIs and k lenses until then.

07-09-2013, 12:48 AM	#307
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by RussV If they make good cameras which are backwards compatible with K mount lenses that's all we need to take pictures. It is actually possible to take pictures with cameras that have no K-mount. It's true, I saw some online. Originally posted by RussV People seem to forget Ricoh made some innovative and good value K mount cameras back in the manual focus & film days. Yes, they discontinued using the K-mount already once before, so... What if discontinueing the K-mount solves a lot of R&D issues? What if that's the only thing that's in the way of Pentax FF? Seriously, discontinueing the K-mount isn't the end of the world either. It only means that part of the userbase, those who sitting on top of heap of 30+ year old glass will be disappointed. But those users don't bring any money to Pentax either, so they won't be missed.

07-09-2013, 04:07 AM	#309
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by Clavius It is actually possible to take pictures with cameras that have no K-mount. It's true, I saw some online. Yes, they discontinued using the K-mount already once before, so... What if discontinueing the K-mount solves a lot of R&D issues? What if that's the only thing that's in the way of Pentax FF? Seriously, discontinueing the K-mount isn't the end of the world either. It only means that part of the userbase, those who sitting on top of heap of 30+ year old glass will be disappointed. But those users don't bring any money to Pentax either, so they won't be missed. I don't see them doing that even if K-mount cannot support the kind of FF they want. They can continue with it, albeit somewhat in legacy mode, for as long as they can sell enough APS-C cameras with the K-mount's flange distance. That could be for quite a few years. In the meantime, they can always offer an adapter come crop mode for K-mount users on whatever new FF mount comes out, if such a thing is on the cards. Just discontinuing the K-mount before the income stream is running dry wouldn't make any business sense? That said, if such a matter were handled clumsily Ricoh would certainly lose an awful lot of Pentax customers and the gig could implode quite quickly. Come the time, many Pentax customers would upgrade to a non-Ricoh brand out of sheer irritation. For what it's worth, I was on a photography workshop this weekend. Fourteen of us went out but I think only three of us were using classic DSLRs - two APS-C and one FF. Everyone else was using MILCs or compacts or, in one case, an iPhone. Someone else said they had an old FF DSLR but it was too big and heavy to lug around London especially on a hot day and these days they hardly used it. Imho, if K-mount has a problem it's not that it's too small for FF. It's that it's too big for the kind of cameras people like to use now. A Nikon 1, Fuji X10 or Canon EOS M - that's the size of camera an awful lot of folks consider big enough these days. And if Ricoh do some marketing, the new Q might likely join them.

07-09-2013, 05:25 AM	#310
magkelly Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,901	If they offered an adapter for the K mount the way they did the M42 mount I think a lot of us would still stick with them even if they did change that and the name on the cams. I love M42 lenses. I just use them with the adapter. I like K mount lenses and I still would use them on a different body so long as it was possible with an adapter. Now if they really wanted to make my day? They'd do something like the M43 mount, make it completely universal but sell all their cams with the U, K and M42 adapters so regardless I could use whatever lens I wanted with their cams, no sweat, and still have a proper DSLR sensor and any kind of Pentax glass when I wanted it. I actually prefer DSLR format over the M43 format but I've always wanted a Pentax DSLR with a bigger sensor and a regular VF that I could do that with. Giving up the VF makes M43 less than ideal for me and so far I'm not crazy about their offerings in smaller format cameras anyway. I want the real deal, a DSLR that I can do that with. Of course that's not what they want, but I do!

07-09-2013, 07:28 AM	#311
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913 Original Poster	Originally posted by mecrox It's that it's too big for the kind of cameras people like to use now. A Nikon 1, Fuji X10 or Canon EOS M - that's the size of camera an awful lot of folks consider big enough these days. Hmmm. It depends. I just shot a gig tonight with my K-5 where some geeky girl asked me afterwards 'what sort of a camera was that?'. She initally thought it was an Olympus OM-D. She thought it couldn't be any other SLR because it was too small.

07-09-2013, 09:09 AM	#312
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by Frater It would be a great idea, if Pentax switches to a new "raw" mount, which adapts to either K mounts or other mounts (Canon and/or Nikon) with broader lens supply, including from Sigma, Tamron, Tokina etc), with the help of an adapter system. Dumb idea. The money in the industry is NOT made from the camera bodies, but from the lenses. This idea would gut Ricoh's Pentax revenues to about 1/3 of their gross over a few years, destroying the company. Ricoh tried the same thig with their M-mount GXR. Ricoh doesn't make lenses not being an optical company. Pentax is an optical company. They make lenses and design cameras to work with their optics.

07-09-2013, 09:14 AM	#313
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by mecrox Imho, if K-mount has a problem it's not that it's too small for FF. It's that it's too big for the kind of cameras people like to use now. A Nikon 1, Fuji X10 or Canon EOS M - that's the size of camera an awful lot of folks consider big enough these days. DSLR's are still outselling the mirrorless models about 4:1. Mirrorless sales have stalled faster than DSLR's for reasons having to do with low value of IQ and total system capabilities compared to the fast-focusing DSLR. Most mirrorless systems produce images that are a step above snapshot, but not much. Creative control over the technical image requires more and the versatility of the DSLR is still unmatched. It's a fractured industry which is great for choice and competition.

07-09-2013, 09:35 AM	#314
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Why does everyone seem to think the focal flange distance of the K-mount is too long? Nikon seems to be doing just fine with a focal flange distance 1.04mm longer.

07-09-2013, 10:31 AM	#315
junyo Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 418	Originally posted by Aristophanes Dumb idea. The money in the industry is NOT made from the camera bodies, but from the lenses. This idea would gut Ricoh's Pentax revenues to about 1/3 of their gross over a few years, destroying the company. Ricoh tried the same thig with their M-mount GXR. Ricoh doesn't make lenses not being an optical company. Pentax is an optical company. They make lenses and design cameras to work with their optics. Except what portion of the K-mount lenses in any given year are new, Pentax made lenses, versus 3rd party and used? The eleventy bizillion K mount lenses on eBay are already gutting lens revenue. The fact that large swathes of the new manufacture K mount lens collection is made by Sigma and Tamron is gutting lens revenue. A new mount would be a monopoly market until third parties showed up. The body needs to be a compelling lost leader to drive lens sales, with a K-mount adapter to lessen the sticker stock and aid current user retention.