Ricoh announces company name change - no more Pentax Ricoh Imaging, just Ricoh.

**boriscleto** · 07-09-2013, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by junyo

The body needs to be a compelling lost leader to drive lens sales, with a K-mount adapter to lessen the sticker stock and aid current user retention.

The leadership of Ricoh is certainly lost if they think that will work.

junyo · 07-09-2013, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

The leadership of Ricoh is certainly lost if they think that will work.

And this is why Pentax users are Pentax's biggest liability.

**boriscleto** · 07-09-2013, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by junyo

And this is why Pentax users are Pentax's biggest liability.

Ask Sony how well AF adapters get along with mirrorless cameras.

cali92rs · 07-09-2013, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

Ask Sony how well AF adapters get along with mirrorless cameras.

Judging by how many people own Sony cameras and lenses versus how many own Pentax cameras and lenses, I think we should listen to their answer to that question

Kunzite · 07-09-2013, 11:41 AM

Having a part of the K-mount lens market vs. having 100% of a zero-sized market, I wonder which is better...
It's not easy to launch a new mount, and profits won't come easily.

By the way, Sony put a lot of effort into marketing their products, so it's not a fair comparison. I'd rather say that, compared to their efforts, the results are somewhat lacking.

cali92rs · 07-09-2013, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Having a part of the K-mount lens market vs. having 100% of a zero-sized market, I wonder which is better...
It's not easy to launch a new mount, and profits won't come easy.

Ricoh mentioned that they wanted to compete with the big boys, can they accomplish that with "part of the k-mount lens market"?

Kunzite · 07-09-2013, 11:46 AM

Of course they can, by increasing it to a comfortable level

Why do you think that reducing it to zero would help?

cali92rs · 07-09-2013, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Of course they can, by increasing it to a comfortable level

Why do you think that reducing it to zero would help?

You must really have no confidence in Ricoh to think that if they created a new lens mount it would generate 0% marketshare.

mecrox · 07-09-2013, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

DSLR's are still outselling the mirrorless models about 4:1. Mirrorless sales have stalled faster than DSLR's for reasons having to do with low value of IQ and total system capabilities compared to the fast-focusing DSLR.

Most mirrorless systems produce images that are a step above snapshot, but not much. Creative control over the technical image requires more and the versatility of the DSLR is still unmatched.

It's a fractured industry which is great for choice and competition.

For now they are - yes. But I'm not at all sure the zeitgeist favours the DSLR. I suspect that mirrorless has been hampered by mistaken or half-hearted attempts (in the case of Canonikon) and then all the makers piling in at once thinking "gold mine". Once there's been a shakeout, the overstocks have been sold down and the cameras are done right, I would guess that mirrorless will do well. It's only anecdotal, of course, but where I live I see staggering numbers of tourists and when I see one with a camera, the vast majority are not using DSLRs. Another one: the biggest retailer of cameras in this town, a consumer electronics outfit, has three tables of cameras: one of lower-end compacts, one of higher-end compacts and MILCs with a lot of models on it, and one of DSLRs but with very few models on display. A step above snapshot, in something small and easy to use, is all that many people want. Without volume the economics of the industry will be in trouble.

**Aristophanes** · 07-09-2013, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by junyo

And this is why Pentax users are Pentax's biggest liability.

Your best customer is the one who currently owns your product.

The worst is the one you think wants your product.

Kunzite · 07-09-2013, 12:52 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by cali92rs

You must really have no confidence in Ricoh to think that if they created a new lens mount it would generate 0% marketshare.

A new lens mount would definitely start from 0.

Funny strategies are formulated here. Pentax should give up on whatever sales they can get, in order to start again, from zero. Pentax should solve the 3rd-party competition issue by changing its mount to accommodate an even larger 3rd-party base. Let's make a loss leader product to help selling Canon and Nikon lenses. The customers loves buying adapters and seeing the mount obsoleted. The mirrorless market is doing wonderfully well.
Yeah, they should really listen

Frater · 07-09-2013, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Dumb idea.This idea would gut Ricoh's Pentax revenues to about 1/3 of their gross over a few years, destroying the company

Well, with that you are assuming pessimistically, that nobody would buy any pentax lens from then on. So you assume, that Pentax lenses qualities are so bad, and/or prices so high by now, that they couldn't compete with competition already today.

Even if you were right with this (which I'm sure you aren't, at least not to such a pessimistic extent), then this problem would also be a desastrous problem to Pentax, if they just leave things as they are.

I believe that the body makers' lens strategies and offerings (and 3rd partys' alternatives' availabilities) are critical for APS-C customers' decision making (on which system they join or leave), much more than the APS-C bodys themselves. It's very rare that someone declares abandoning his/her K-5IIs because he/she woudn't like this body any more (unless being forced by sudden special requirements, such as requiring tethering, or a pro flash system, or an instant FF upgrade, but all this isn't seen very often in forums really). Lens considerations seem more dominant overall.

Talking about lenses, I'm actually a bit worried about delays in Ricoh's lens arena as well; no updated lens roadmaps or otherwise declared strategies? Everything seems as if a bit stalled, for some while.

Kunzite · 07-09-2013, 01:30 PM

And you are assuming they would buy more Pentax lenses, if Pentax would:
a. facilitate using other brands lenses (with a variety far surpassing that of the K-mount system)
b. make it harder (adapter) to use K-mount lenses.
It's like thinking you'd float better in the sea, if you'd tie stone boulders to your feets

**monochrome** · 07-09-2013, 01:49 PM - **5 Likes**

Ahem.

Pentax is committed to the Q, K-mount and 645 mount. Period.

Ricoh is committed to both the Pentax brand and the Ricoh brand. Period.

Both statements were made in the last 90 days by the most senior Pentax executives, one directly to me and other PF members, one directly to the public.

No equivocation, no interpretation, no corporate doublespeak.

Anyone who doesn't hear what is being said either isn't listening or is an agitator.

Biro · 07-09-2013, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Ahem.

Pentax is committed to the Q, K-mount and 645 mount. Period.

Ricoh is committed to both the Pentax brand and the Ricoh brand. Period.

Both statements were made in the last 90 days by the most senior Pentax executives, one directly to me and other PF members, one directly to the public.

No equivocation, no interpretation, no corporate doublespeak.

Anyone who doesn't hear what is being said either isn't listening or is an agitator.

+10 As I've said in a few places, I don't understand what isn't clear here.

07-09-2013, 01:24 PM	#327
Frater Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 143	Originally posted by Aristophanes Dumb idea.This idea would gut Ricoh's Pentax revenues to about 1/3 of their gross over a few years, destroying the company Well, with that you are assuming pessimistically, that nobody would buy any pentax lens from then on. So you assume, that Pentax lenses qualities are so bad, and/or prices so high by now, that they couldn't compete with competition already today. Even if you were right with this (which I'm sure you aren't, at least not to such a pessimistic extent), then this problem would also be a desastrous problem to Pentax, if they just leave things as they are. I believe that the body makers' lens strategies and offerings (and 3rd partys' alternatives' availabilities) are critical for APS-C customers' decision making (on which system they join or leave), much more than the APS-C bodys themselves. It's very rare that someone declares abandoning his/her K-5IIs because he/she woudn't like this body any more (unless being forced by sudden special requirements, such as requiring tethering, or a pro flash system, or an instant FF upgrade, but all this isn't seen very often in forums really). Lens considerations seem more dominant overall. Talking about lenses, I'm actually a bit worried about delays in Ricoh's lens arena as well; no updated lens roadmaps or otherwise declared strategies? Everything seems as if a bit stalled, for some while. Last edited by Frater; 07-09-2013 at 01:50 PM.

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07-09-2013, 10:48 AM	#316
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by junyo The body needs to be a compelling lost leader to drive lens sales, with a K-mount adapter to lessen the sticker stock and aid current user retention. The leadership of Ricoh is certainly lost if they think that will work.

07-09-2013, 10:58 AM	#317
junyo Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 418	Originally posted by boriscleto The leadership of Ricoh is certainly lost if they think that will work. And this is why Pentax users are Pentax's biggest liability.

07-09-2013, 11:05 AM	#318
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by junyo And this is why Pentax users are Pentax's biggest liability. Ask Sony how well AF adapters get along with mirrorless cameras.

07-09-2013, 11:10 AM	#319
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by boriscleto Ask Sony how well AF adapters get along with mirrorless cameras. Judging by how many people own Sony cameras and lenses versus how many own Pentax cameras and lenses, I think we should listen to their answer to that question

07-09-2013, 11:41 AM	#320
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Having a part of the K-mount lens market vs. having 100% of a zero-sized market, I wonder which is better... It's not easy to launch a new mount, and profits won't come easily. By the way, Sony put a lot of effort into marketing their products, so it's not a fair comparison. I'd rather say that, compared to their efforts, the results are somewhat lacking.

07-09-2013, 11:44 AM	#321
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by Kunzite Having a part of the K-mount lens market vs. having 100% of a zero-sized market, I wonder which is better... It's not easy to launch a new mount, and profits won't come easy. Ricoh mentioned that they wanted to compete with the big boys, can they accomplish that with "part of the k-mount lens market"?

07-09-2013, 11:46 AM	#322
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Of course they can, by increasing it to a comfortable level Why do you think that reducing it to zero would help?

07-09-2013, 11:52 AM	#323
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by Kunzite Of course they can, by increasing it to a comfortable level Why do you think that reducing it to zero would help? You must really have no confidence in Ricoh to think that if they created a new lens mount it would generate 0% marketshare.

07-09-2013, 12:15 PM	#324
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by Aristophanes DSLR's are still outselling the mirrorless models about 4:1. Mirrorless sales have stalled faster than DSLR's for reasons having to do with low value of IQ and total system capabilities compared to the fast-focusing DSLR. Most mirrorless systems produce images that are a step above snapshot, but not much. Creative control over the technical image requires more and the versatility of the DSLR is still unmatched. It's a fractured industry which is great for choice and competition. For now they are - yes. But I'm not at all sure the zeitgeist favours the DSLR. I suspect that mirrorless has been hampered by mistaken or half-hearted attempts (in the case of Canonikon) and then all the makers piling in at once thinking "gold mine". Once there's been a shakeout, the overstocks have been sold down and the cameras are done right, I would guess that mirrorless will do well. It's only anecdotal, of course, but where I live I see staggering numbers of tourists and when I see one with a camera, the vast majority are not using DSLRs. Another one: the biggest retailer of cameras in this town, a consumer electronics outfit, has three tables of cameras: one of lower-end compacts, one of higher-end compacts and MILCs with a lot of models on it, and one of DSLRs but with very few models on display. A step above snapshot, in something small and easy to use, is all that many people want. Without volume the economics of the industry will be in trouble.

07-09-2013, 12:19 PM	#325
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by junyo And this is why Pentax users are Pentax's biggest liability. Your best customer is the one who currently owns your product. The worst is the one you think wants your product.

07-09-2013, 12:52 PM - 2 Likes	#326
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by cali92rs You must really have no confidence in Ricoh to think that if they created a new lens mount it would generate 0% marketshare. A new lens mount would definitely start from 0. Funny strategies are formulated here. Pentax should give up on whatever sales they can get, in order to start again, from zero. Pentax should solve the 3rd-party competition issue by changing its mount to accommodate an even larger 3rd-party base. Let's make a loss leader product to help selling Canon and Nikon lenses. The customers loves buying adapters and seeing the mount obsoleted. The mirrorless market is doing wonderfully well. Yeah, they should really listen

07-09-2013, 01:30 PM	#328
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	And you are assuming they would buy more Pentax lenses, if Pentax would: a. facilitate using other brands lenses (with a variety far surpassing that of the K-mount system) b. make it harder (adapter) to use K-mount lenses. It's like thinking you'd float better in the sea, if you'd tie stone boulders to your feets

07-09-2013, 01:49 PM - 5 Likes	#329
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Ahem. Pentax is committed to the Q, K-mount and 645 mount. Period. Ricoh is committed to both the Pentax brand and the Ricoh brand. Period. Both statements were made in the last 90 days by the most senior Pentax executives, one directly to me and other PF members, one directly to the public. No equivocation, no interpretation, no corporate doublespeak. Anyone who doesn't hear what is being said either isn't listening or is an agitator.

07-09-2013, 01:59 PM	#330
Biro Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,200	Originally posted by monochrome Ahem. Pentax is committed to the Q, K-mount and 645 mount. Period. Ricoh is committed to both the Pentax brand and the Ricoh brand. Period. Both statements were made in the last 90 days by the most senior Pentax executives, one directly to me and other PF members, one directly to the public. No equivocation, no interpretation, no corporate doublespeak. Anyone who doesn't hear what is being said either isn't listening or is an agitator. +10 As I've said in a few places, I don't understand what isn't clear here.