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07-05-2013, 04:21 PM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
..
This merger seems to be playing out just as so many before it have. At least this time Ricoh seems committed to making cameras.
Well, as said before, Pentax is a trade mark, or more accurately, an idea that epitomises certain values. As long as there are people who want to challenge the norms and be on the forefront of new ideas, and give even newer expressions to that idea, that name can live on. Ideas have a strange power over us all.

We see that every day but forget — in the namesakes of our countries, nations, and even in ourselves.

But speaking of people; Hoya has laid off many senior staff as you say, but wasn't Ricoh trying to get some long-time veterans back again? I thought I read something, somewhere, but cannot confirm.


Last edited by Uluru; 07-05-2013 at 04:27 PM.
07-05-2013, 04:30 PM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
But speaking of people; Hoya has laid off many senior staff as you say, but wasn't Ricoh trying to get some long-time veterans back again? I thought I read something, somewhere, but cannot confirm.
That was stated by a Ricoh Exec (can't remember which) 12/2011, that Ricoh would aggressively rehire lens engineers to rebuild the Pentax brand.

Then Ricoh (the parent company) had its corporate restructuring, hiring freeze, laid off people and merged smaller copier brands all over the world - and we can guess what happened to the DigiCam personnel plans.

We are supposedly through the corporate issues now.

But I've hijacked another thread with my corporate apologist meme again - so I'm off now.
07-05-2013, 07:13 PM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
You realize that, to a certain degree, "taste" is acquired, right? Like fashion and pop music, once you are acclimatized due to repetitious exposure you end up accepting the very things you hated before - not always of course as there are limits, which you keep pointing out about this camera. We learn to see something new every day if we are fortunate and vigilant.

Taste is not an absolute but a closed mind definitely is.
The "Lecture" tone of your post is noted. Could you explain what you are referring to when say "closed mind". You wouldn't be accusing people of having closed mind becuase they have a subjective distaste of the K-01 would you?
07-05-2013, 07:21 PM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
No you'll get flamed by people like who really don't give a damn but are tired to read such nonsense BS.
Presumably these people will also flame those at the other extremes, the K-01 fanboys who keep lauding the K-01 up as the most beautiful camera that ever existed? I presume you would label that also as "Nonsense BS"

Personally I respect all diverse subjective opinions on aesthetics and would never be disrespectful to label any of them "nonsense BS"

It is however clear that some people do actually give a damn, despite claiming otherwise, and are getting angry over negative comments about the look of a camera. Really, It's only a camera.

07-05-2013, 09:13 PM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smeggypants Quote
The "Lecture" tone of your post is noted. Could you explain what you are referring to when say "closed mind". You wouldn't be accusing people of having closed mind becuase they have a subjective distaste of the K-01 would you?
IMO your regular smug 'insights' into the aesthetic qualities of the K-01 should receive a response as I believe that people should always justify their opinions. It's never good enough to dismiss someone, or their work, in such a trite manner based on and protected by the sanctity of 'feelings' alone. You seem to think that you were born with an innate preformed sense of style and taste but that's just not correct. We learn these things, if we didn't, we would not need Artists to explore the visual world for us.
07-05-2013, 10:31 PM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
This merger seems to be playing out just as so many before it have. At least this time Ricoh seems committed to making cameras.
What merger? There was never any merger. Ricoh purchased Pentax as a subsidiary from Hoya, 100% outright lock, stock and barrel. That's not a merger, it's a new owner/boss.

Last edited by anthony mazzeri; 07-05-2013 at 10:38 PM.
07-05-2013, 11:19 PM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
IMO your regular smug 'insights' into the aesthetic qualities of the K-01 should receive a response as I believe that people should always justify their opinions. It's never good enough to dismiss someone, or their work, in such a trite manner based on and protected by the sanctity of 'feelings' alone. You seem to think that you were born with an innate preformed sense of style and taste but that's just not correct. We learn these things, if we didn't, we would not need Artists to explore the visual world for us.
"we", "we", "we" -- You only speak for your own view on the world.

QuoteQuote:
It's never good enough to dismiss someone, or their work, in such a trite manner based on and protected by the sanctity of 'feelings' alone
Actually yes it is. Subjectivity is just that... Subejctivity. It does not need any objective explanation to satisfy the subjectivity denialists like yourself. You can read as many books by pretentious acadameics trying to apply an objective analysis of subjectivity as you like and parrot that agenda ad infinitum but I'm afraid you're chasing infinity.

Jut becuase Marc newson may have spent valuabkle nergy upon designing the look of the K-01 that shouldn't mean I am obligated to like it out of respect for that expended energy. In fact I'm sure newson himself is fully aware that his work, being put upon a public stage, has by doing so given permission for criticism both good and bad.

"Smug"

I can assure you I have no feelings of smugness regarding my views on the aesthetics of the K-01. My feelings on the look of the camera create no prode nor do they create any emabrrasement. They are what they are, a purely subjective viewpoint. You clearly struiggle with the concept of pure subjectivity but that is an issue you must resolve with yourself. I cannot help you with that, nor can anyone else.

QuoteQuote:
You seem to think that you were born with an innate preformed sense of style and taste but that's just not correct
Actually it is correct. However it is true to say that a person's subjective tastes can develop and in deed change through. It's still subjective though.

I don't need "artistes" to explore anything for me. I am quite capable of exploring the world by myself. I can however appreciate ( or not ) the explorations of others and give a subjective feeling upon their explorations. I find the work of soem artistes very pleasing, others I do not.

Marc Newson's design of the K-01 is one such artistic exploration that I subjectively find distasteful. I am confident in my own subjectivity without having to read someone else work on design principles in order to help me make up my mind on what I find tasteful or not.

"Appeal to authority" is a logical fallacy. Something is logically not better simply because some "authority" says it is.


I like the look of something or I don't like the look of something based upon pure gut feeling subjectivity. In 10 years time or even mext week I may love the look of the K-01, But if I do it wil still be a subjective feeling. Marc Newson is likely someone who hasn't a problem with that, I'm not so so sure you can cope with it.
07-05-2013, 11:40 PM - 1 Like   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
That was stated by a Ricoh Exec (can't remember which) 12/2011, that Ricoh would aggressively rehire lens engineers to rebuild the Pentax brand.
Those lens engineers that were to be rehired preferred unemployment over painting the FA limiteds in all colours of the rainbow.

07-05-2013, 11:49 PM - 2 Likes   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Professionally, I've stopped using my Pentax gear completely now. I had to. Dispite the black tape over the Pentax-logo, one of my clients said: "Pentax?! But aren't they the ones with all the happy coloured cameras? You're kidding, right?" Ashamed I told them it was a mistake and went to my car to get my "serious" camera. A 5DmkII, which I dislike using a lot. Next time the K-5IIs stays at home.
....
tragic..that would be like my kitchen clients dissing my table saw.
send them a link to Benjikans latest cover
07-06-2013, 12:46 AM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Was Jim more specific about the Pentax culture being cautious? I mean, those guys at Pentax did design the Q concept 6-7 years ago, right? And who persuaded them to add colours to the Kx before Ricoh came on stage?
There is always more behind such claims.
The story IIRC was that Pentax wanted to make studies and research if the white K-x had a chance to sell. It was apparently Hoya who told them to just do it and effectively see if it sells.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
@Uluru: Everything you write is likely true and I am aware of the value of history, experience and wisdom. We should recall that Hoya had already cleared many of the most senior (highest paid) engineers and managers from the payroll, leaving only the lower cost (presumably younger) staff, so many of the "wise old engineers" and "cautious old men" were already gone. What struck Malcolm was the intractability of both teams, who he said in an online interview were simply unwilling to listen to each other.
Quote, please. The interview I know of doesn't say that, but only that it's taking more time than expected (which IMHO is to be expected ) - " But it’s taken more time than anybody expected to really integrate two working teams, to develop leadership within each of those teams, and kind of set the direction and the tone and be able to share some of that core competency that Ricoh has in the imaging and the optics together with the Pentax engineers and turn it into one team and build roadmaps and be able to bring the products to market."
Bad mouthing your people is not something a manager should do publicly.
07-06-2013, 01:07 AM   #161
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I don't see whats the big deal.
It sold well enough in Japan for them to continue it there and in a nice new color.
End of story.

(I might just pick one up if its at a good price, when I am there)
07-06-2013, 01:15 AM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by Smeggypants Quote
In 10 years time or even mext week I may love the look of the K-01, But if I do it wil still be a subjective feeling. Marc Newson is likely someone who hasn't a problem with that, I'm not so so sure you can cope with it.
So you agree that your subjective responses to visual stimuli are open to change over time and for whatever reason. The fact that you aren't interested in understanding this is interesting.

The following quote can be applied across the board to many counties these days:
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
― Isaac Asimov

PS: Subjectivity is about much more than feelings. The words subject refers to the individual whereas the word subjective refers to the internal experience of the individual in any given situation. This experience is effected by much more than 'feelings' but more so the entirety of your influences in the world to date.

Last edited by bossa; 07-06-2013 at 01:35 AM.
07-06-2013, 01:51 AM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
I don't see whats the big deal.
It sold well enough in Japan for them to continue it there and in a nice new color.
End of story.
It's just an occasion for people to vent their frustration and anger at Pentax. It doesn't matter what it is - a K-01 for which, surprisingly, there is customer demand; a Q which is selling quite well in Japan; another entry/mid-level DSLR or, I'd say, even a highly competitive full frame camera.
07-06-2013, 01:52 AM - 1 Like   #164
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I don't think even for a minute that K-01 was designed to be anything more than an experiment, to attract more new users to K-mount.
Pentax must have assumed it will create controversy, that it will keep their name in the press. Buy them time, of at least one year.

I cannot say I blame them. K-01 will go into history as one of the most intriguing cameras and I'm sure K-01 users swear by it and love it. When I saw it, I have recognised it was not seriously thought-out or designed from grounds up like the Q concept was. To me it looked like a minimum of effort unified in a minimalistic shell. But it works because it's so simple, and because it's so simple it has a unique appeal, which all yields in such a low price that it cannot be resisted — even begged for more!

Because of all that, I think it's a brilliantly executed strategy, but Ricoh must know the K-01 is just one trick pony. K5II was too.
Now it's time for some more talented performers.

Last edited by Uluru; 07-06-2013 at 02:01 AM.
07-06-2013, 03:38 AM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I don't think even for a minute that K-01 was designed to be anything more than an experiment, to attract more new users to K-mount... but Ricoh must know the K-01 is just one trick pony. K5II was too. Now it's time for some more talented performers.
Hear, hear!
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