[nosnoop]

A smaller competitor NEEDS the high-end to cross-finance the mass market in view of a lack of economy of scale.

Only if they sell enough numbers! And the margins they can make from the camera is limited by the need to be competitive.
Judging by the minuscule market share by "pro FF" market, Pentax would be foolish to spend money there at this point.

[nosnoop]

With no upgrade path for existing customers who want more, they'll lose present customers, and with such limited aspirations, they won't have much to entice new customers with.

Of course Pentax is planning for an upgrade path - the K1D/K2D, just not the FF you want.

As I stated before, majority of consumer don't care about sensor size, as APS-C offers good enough IQ for 99% of the buyers (the total market share in Japan from D3 + 5D is about 1% as of two weeks ago; D3 sales volume has halved since the peak after launch).

The "they shouldn't compete with Canon/Nikon" attitude is ridiculous - the are competing with Canon and Nikon, whether they like it or not, and the sooner they face that fact (and start acting like it), the better off they'll be.

But they are not competing with Canon/Nikon head to head, product for product, that's what he meant. And Pentax is not competing with them for volume.

So nothing ridiculous about what he said, totally makes sense to me!

[Tom Lusk]

for the survival of the P/K mount, if Samsung continues to put resources into their camera division.

They have the financial might (and determination) to become a real player in the DSLR market,

unlike some other companies...

[24X36NOW]

Of course Pentax is planning for an upgrade path - the K1D/K2D, just not the FF you want.

As I stated before, majority of consumer don't care about sensor size, as APS-C offers good enough IQ for 99% of the buyers (the total market share in Japan from D3 + 5D is about 1% as of two weeks ago; D3 sales volume has halved since the peak after launch).



But they are not competing with Canon/Nikon head to head, product for product, that's what he meant. And Pentax is not competing with them for volume.

So nothing ridiculous about what he said, totally makes sense to me!

You'll be amazed at how many will suddenly "care about sensor size" once the marketing machines tell them why they should. Pentax is absolutely competing with Canon and Nikon "head to head;" every time a camera buyer is standing at the counter at a camera store listening to the advantages and disadvantages of camera A vs. camera B. It's not as if Canon and Nikon don't make entry level cameras as well as professional models at ten times the price! If Pentax wants to "bottom feed," they'll be their own biggest obstacle to success, and Canon and Nikon will just continue to squeeze them out - with or without Sony's help.

[24X36NOW]

for the survival of the P/K mount, if Samsung continues to put resources into their camera division.

They have the financial might (and determination) to become a real player in the DSLR market,

unlike some other companies...

Yes, indeed...

[codiac2600]

You'll be amazed at how many will suddenly "care about sensor size" once the marketing machines tell them why they should. Pentax is absolutely competing with Canon and Nikon "head to head;" every time a camera buyer is standing at the counter at a camera store listening to the advantages and disadvantages of camera A vs. camera B. It's not as if Canon and Nikon don't make entry level cameras as well as professional models at ten times the price! If Pentax wants to "bottom feed," they'll be their own biggest obstacle to success, and Canon and Nikon will just continue to squeeze them out - with or without Sony's help.

The marketing machine would have already started towards FF sensored cameras if Canon and Nikon wanted to.

Look at Canons marketing campaign... Buy a Rebel, buy a Rebel and buy a Rebel. Why? Because they don't cost much to manufacture and they can sell a truckload of them. Canon doesn't care what the "pros" really want cause look at the XSi... it use SD cards which the pros are frowning upon, but will it stop them from buying a 1DMKIII? no!

If Pentax were to make a pro FF camera they would go under and we'd be stuck with buying 40D's and D300's. They won't play to the tune of the piper like everyone wants because thats not their game. Pentax wants to be different and they are.

All they truly need right now is a pro "featured" camera in the APS-C market, which they will have. The K20D is more than enough for most pro shooters and more camera than an experienced photographer. In order to sway the "Pro" market they'd have to play the numbers game in respect to "Pro" features.

Pro features include:
-Higher continuous FPS rate for journalists, sports, some wildlife.
-Metal Body because it screams pro
-Increased shutter durability, probably 200,000+ actuations.
-Larger buffer for RAW files
-More AF points with more options for those points like tracking and 9 point configs.
-Larger, brighter viewfinder.

More "pros" shoot XT's 40D's and D200/300's than you guys really think. Not every pro shoots or needs a 1DsMKIII or D3. It's an item that doesn't sell fast enough to make tons of profit and won't make enough money to build on lower models, especially for Pentax.

[clawhammer]

*The following numbers were pulled out of thin air*

Let's say pentax can sell 20,000 mid- and low-end cameras with at a profit of $5 per camera- that's $100,000 profit. Now, let's say they can sell 2000 High-end cameras with a profit five times as great- $25 per camera. That's $50,000.

I do this to illustrate that even with 5 times the profit, you would need to sell a very large amount of rather expensive cameras to get the same profits as you would from cheaper cameras with a lower margin. To introduce a pro camera is to take a direct swing at Canon (especially the pro sports shooter market). Nikon is already duking it out in there. It doesn't seem to me (and apparently to pentax as well) that there's enough room in that market segment to provide the quantity of sales required to make the investment worthwhile.

An example: I worked at a camera store where we carried the lower and middle segments- Rebels to 40d, D40 to D300. We had probably three times as many people ask for a d80 than a D300, and three times as many people ask for a D40/x than a D80. The numbers were similar for the canons. These number seemed to be the same for other stores that did not carry the EOS 1 or D2/3 lines. Admitedly, people probably never asked for a D3/EOS 1 because (usually) the sort of people who would buy those cameras already know that a store like ours didn't have them.

[proudtoshootpentax]

I would like to see a camera positioned above the K20D. Call it whatever you want... pro... pro-sumer... whatever category it would best fit in. I'd love to see the features Chris mentioned above, more FPS, metal body, faster AF and more AF points. I think that a camera like this, if it could be kept to $2,000-2,500 would sell well enough. I'd certainly buy it.

I do think also that there is an undeniable 'halo' effect that can hold down any company. People want to think that they're buying the 'best' when the purchase a big dollar item. I think that a body above the K20D would attract more people to Pentax, and I think that as the company's sales continue to grow... as they certainly have recently... there will be a real potential to support a camera one step higher up the rung than the K20D. Whether you would call it a 'professional' body is debatable... but I don't think we've reached the ceiling yet of what is possible. People need to feel like there's room to grow in a system if they're going to start spending thousands on lenses and accessories.

My own request would be the return of the MZ-S tilted top LCD. In fact... the more it resembles the MZ-S in shape... the happier I'd be. That's a beautiful camera.

[BrendanPK]

My own request would be the return of the MZ-S tilted top LCD. In fact... the more it resembles the MZ-S in shape... the happier I'd be. That's a beautiful camera.

I think anyone who has had the pleasure of handling an MZ-S would agree. I would though add a front wheel for app., but the back wheel is fine where it is. The design and handling on it was the most beautiful thing pentax ever did. The only camera to top my desire list from pentax is an Lx

[NickC]

I think anyone who has had the pleasure of handling an MZ-S would agree. I would though add a front wheel for app., but the back wheel is fine where it is. The design and handling on it was the most beautiful thing pentax ever did. The only camera to top my desire list from pentax is an Lx

I agree about the MZ-S. I actually have this and an LX, and prefer the handling of the MZ-S, although the LX is a classic.

I'd like to see an MZ-S style limited body to match the limited lenses, i.e. something smaller than the K10D but with K20D features such as the sensor, dual control wheels and large viewfinder. I don't care about high FPS, in fact I'd be happy with a manual wind-on lever to cock the shutter. High FPS and the limited don't go together anyway. High quality possibly metal build to match the lenses and I'd be happy. Remove some of the automation to get back to the MX/LX style of operation would also suit my style of photography. Could even remove the flash to get a bigger viewfinder in a smaller package.

Got a Pentax Day at my local camera store on Saturday so I'll see if I can glean any info from the rep then.

Nick

[falconeye]

*The following numbers were pulled out of thin air*

Too thin to breath

You would be surprised how much bigger the margin at the highest than the lowest end really is. It is about a 100 times larger (5x in % by 20x in price). For the manufacturer, not the dealer.

[nosnoop]

You'll be amazed at how many will suddenly "care about sensor size" once the marketing machines tell them why they should.

Not sure about that - probably only when the market is saturated and there are no more must have features. Right now, there are more important things in consumers' mind, like Live View and high definition video mode.

Pentax is absolutely competing with Canon and Nikon "head to head;" every time a camera buyer is standing at the counter at a camera store listening to the advantages and disadvantages of camera A vs. camera B.

Not really. It's like Toyota vs Subaru; Subaru cannot possibly compete with Toyota "head to head" as they don't have the volume to match. Same for Pentax. So it's pointless for Pentax to try to compete with the big two for volume. Even if only 1 to 2 people out of 5 coming through the door go with Pentax, it would mean big success for Pentax (OTOH, if the same applies for Canon or Nikon, it would mean disastrous sales).

If Pentax wants to "bottom feed," they'll be their own biggest obstacle to success

Don't know why you keep using the term "bottom feed", that's simply NOT TRUE. So not producing a camera for the 1% of the market segment is called bottom feed? This is just a completely distorted view of the current market. Try competing in the 99% of the market segment instead of the niche 1% is the only sensible thing for Pentax to do!

[dancel]

Last year i heard Pentax was third in sales in japan and europe.. if you ask me they are doing pretty well in the industry.

[deejjjaaaa]

Not really. It's like Toyota vs Subaru; Subaru cannot possibly compete with Toyota

and Subaru does not want to - Subaru now assembles Camry in Indiana...

[Jonson PL]

I agree about the MZ-S. I actually have this and an LX, and prefer the handling of the MZ-S, although the LX is a classic.

I'd like to see an MZ-S style limited body to match the limited lenses, i.e. something smaller than the K10D but with K20D features such as the sensor, dual control wheels and large viewfinder. I don't care about high FPS, in fact I'd be happy with a manual wind-on lever to cock the shutter. High FPS and the limited don't go together anyway. High quality possibly metal build to match the lenses and I'd be happy. Remove some of the automation to get back to the MX/LX style of operation would also suit my style of photography. Could even remove the flash to get a bigger viewfinder in a smaller package.

Got a Pentax Day at my local camera store on Saturday so I'll see if I can glean any info from the rep then.

Nick

This would be one sweet camera, what price range would you accept such a camera in ?