New Pentax CMOS sensor

Busiko · 03-20-2008, 04:17 PM

We have already noted the 30s limitation for long exposures. Even the K20D liveview is limited to 60s continuous operation, switching off after that for cooling down. Yes, the sensor gets warm and that leads to warping of the substrate with the deterioration of IQ.
Pentax and Hitachi have been developing a new CMOS sensor that will overcome that limitation. Being an APS-C size, the producing method will allow for much better cooling, less warping of the sensor, and requiring less curvature correction from the lenses. That will allow for long time exposures to capture those beautiful night scenes. Also the component count will be less turning this sensor a lower cost to produce.
What about a new Pentax body with exposure times to 2min, Liveview in the viewfinder, higher shutter speeds plus AF with pattern recognition and tracking?? and more...
Regards,
Rui

ricardobeat · 03-20-2008, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Busiko

We have already noted the 30s limitation for long exposures. Even the K20D liveview is limited to 60s continuous operation, switching off after that for cooling down. Yes, the sensor gets warm and that leads to warping of the substrate with the deterioration of IQ.
Pentax and Hitachi have been developing a new CMOS sensor that will overcome that limitation. Being an APS-C size, the producing method will allow for much better cooling, less warping of the sensor, and requiring less curvature correction from the lenses. That will allow for long time exposures to capture those beautiful night scenes. Also the component count will be less turning this sensor a lower cost to produce.
What about a new Pentax body with exposure times to 2min, Liveview in the viewfinder, higher shutter speeds plus AF with pattern recognition and tracking?? and more...
Regards,
Rui

Have you heard of bulb mode?

Busiko · 03-20-2008, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by ricardobeat

Have you heard of bulb mode?

With BULB mode the problem remains. Use it and abuse it then tell me.

clawhammer · 03-20-2008, 06:14 PM

sounds intriguing, but just outta curiosity, do you have a source for this?

lithos · 03-21-2008, 12:34 AM

If I didn't get booted out of that other forum for quoting a spammer $1500 to do her portfolio, I'd give you the link to that EOS that some guys rigged up with a Peltier cooling system for astrophotography.

ftpaddict · 03-21-2008, 01:38 AM

Ishpuini · 03-21-2008, 02:27 AM

Even if it's true, I see no real need for it. The current Pentax Kx0D bodies have multiple exposure mode, which imho is an improvement on long exposures. Only problem may be the dark frame subtraction taking up time between shots, but still I prefer the results. We can go up to 9 times 30s, which is 4.5 minutes.

I you would have said Pentax was working with Samsung on this I would have found it easier to believe, but with Hitachi?

Wim

codiac2600 · 03-21-2008, 03:08 AM

Read the manual or own a K20D which state that Bulb can go for AS LONG AS YOU HOLD DOWN THE SHUTTER via page 96 and also from personal experience. Live view cuts off after 3 minutes not 60 seconds. No need for making up false statements.

Busiko · 03-21-2008, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by ftpaddict

PreGrant Publication Database Search Results: AN/pentax AND AN/hitachi in PGPUB Production Database

Busiko · 03-21-2008, 04:51 AM

Originally posted by codiac2600

Read the manual or own a K20D which state that Bulb can go for AS LONG AS YOU HOLD DOWN THE SHUTTER via page 96 and also from personal experience. Live view cuts off after 3 minutes not 60 seconds. No need for making up false statements.

Sorry Chris. I don't own a K20D nor I've ever read the manual. So I stand corrected by the numbers.

Meanwhile I think someone should alert Pentax and Hitachi because maybe they are wasting their time on such a research and development.
Their document:
PreGrant Publication Database Search Results: AN/pentax AND AN/hitachi in PGPUB Production Database

points at that direction. Overall IQ should benefit from that.
Quote:

[0046](f) Since the solid-state image pickup element is bonded to the substrate formed of silicon nitride having a favorable thermal conduction property (having a thermal conductivity of 90 W/mK), heat generated in the solid-state image pickup element can be radiated to the outside via the substrate quickly. When the solid-state image pickup device is used in a camera, therefore, exposure to light for a long time becomes possible. For example, it is also possible to take an image of a night view beautifully by conducting exposure to light for a long time.

[0047](g) As described in (b), the warp of the light sensing face of the solid-state image pickup element can be made to coincide with or be approximate to the curvature of field. As for the light receiving quantity in the image peripheral part as well, the same light quantity as that in the image center part can be taken in, and a clear image can be obtained. In the color video image, therefore, it becomes possible to unify the color density in the image center and in the image peripheral part.
Unquote.

Sorry for taking your precious time.
Regards
Rui

ricardobeat · 03-21-2008, 11:55 AM

You said "we have already noted the 30s limitation". My K100D and GX10 can go for minutes without trouble. I think the K100D will start producing an orange glow on the top part of the sensor a bit before 30 minutes of exposure, but that's way more than you need for normal night photography. There's nothing to be fixed, if you want a 6 hour exposure use film! More capacity will come with technology in the future, but it's not actually a problem.

I think you misread that document. From what I understood, they are developing pixels that can "warp" themselves using heat to avoid light fall-off and loss of resolution in the corners of the sensor. No benefits for low-light photography, it will just make the image quality even across the frame, what would be incredible.

The first part you quote (046) is probably the way CMOS sensors are already built.

jeffkrol · 03-21-2008, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Busiko

Sorry Chris. I don't own a K20D nor I've ever read the manual. So I stand corrected by the numbers.

Meanwhile I think someone should alert Pentax and Hitachi because maybe they are wasting their time on such a research and development.
Their document:
PreGrant Publication Database Search Results: AN/pentax AND AN/hitachi in PGPUB Production Database

points at that direction. Overall IQ should benefit from that.
Quote:

[0046](f) Since the solid-state image pickup element is bonded to the substrate formed of silicon nitride having a favorable thermal conduction property (having a thermal conductivity of 90 W/mK), heat generated in the solid-state image pickup element can be radiated to the outside via the substrate quickly. When the solid-state image pickup device is used in a camera, therefore, exposure to light for a long time becomes possible. For example, it is also possible to take an image of a night view beautifully by conducting exposure to light for a long time.

[0047](g) As described in (b), the warp of the light sensing face of the solid-state image pickup element can be made to coincide with or be approximate to the curvature of field. As for the light receiving quantity in the image peripheral part as well, the same light quantity as that in the image center part can be taken in, and a clear image can be obtained. In the color video image, therefore, it becomes possible to unify the color density in the image center and in the image peripheral part.
Unquote.

Sorry for taking your precious time.
Regards
Rui

got to admit, this looks like a "planned deformation" of the sensor iin order to match lens field curvature.. Nothing realy to do w/ long exposures. Other than that, a pretty neat idea...

Matjazz · 03-21-2008, 04:21 PM

It's a known fact that during long exposures noise builds up because of heat. Leave a camera in bulb mode for long enough and you get a white frame. It is an area of photography where sensors still fall behind film considerably. Just try and make a night photo where stars rotate 15° and leave continuous trail (2h exposure)

Busiko · 03-21-2008, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by ricardobeat

You said "we have already noted the 30s limitation". My K100D and GX10 can go for minutes without trouble. I think the K100D will start producing an orange glow on the top part of the sensor a bit before 30 minutes of exposure, but that's way more than you need for normal night photography. There's nothing to be fixed, if you want a 6 hour exposure use film! More capacity will come with technology in the future, but it's not actually a problem.

I think you misread that document. From what I understood, they are developing pixels that can "warp" themselves using heat to avoid light fall-off and loss of resolution in the corners of the sensor. No benefits for low-light photography, it will just make the image quality even across the frame, what would be incredible.

The first part you quote (046) is probably the way CMOS sensors are already built.

Acho que tem de ler novamente...

Busiko · 03-21-2008, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by jeffkrol

got to admit, this looks like a "planned deformation" of the sensor iin order to match lens field curvature.. Nothing realy to do w/ long exposures. Other than that, a pretty neat idea...

(46)....therefore, exposure to light for a long time becomes possible. For example, it is also possible to take an image of a night view beautifully by conducting exposure to light for a long time.

03-20-2008, 04:17 PM	#1
Busiko Guest	New Pentax CMOS sensor We have already noted the 30s limitation for long exposures. Even the K20D liveview is limited to 60s continuous operation, switching off after that for cooling down. Yes, the sensor gets warm and that leads to warping of the substrate with the deterioration of IQ. Pentax and Hitachi have been developing a new CMOS sensor that will overcome that limitation. Being an APS-C size, the producing method will allow for much better cooling, less warping of the sensor, and requiring less curvature correction from the lenses. That will allow for long time exposures to capture those beautiful night scenes. Also the component count will be less turning this sensor a lower cost to produce. What about a new Pentax body with exposure times to 2min, Liveview in the viewfinder, higher shutter speeds plus AF with pattern recognition and tracking?? and more... Regards, Rui

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03-20-2008, 04:24 PM	#2
ricardobeat Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 376	Originally posted by Busiko We have already noted the 30s limitation for long exposures. Even the K20D liveview is limited to 60s continuous operation, switching off after that for cooling down. Yes, the sensor gets warm and that leads to warping of the substrate with the deterioration of IQ. Pentax and Hitachi have been developing a new CMOS sensor that will overcome that limitation. Being an APS-C size, the producing method will allow for much better cooling, less warping of the sensor, and requiring less curvature correction from the lenses. That will allow for long time exposures to capture those beautiful night scenes. Also the component count will be less turning this sensor a lower cost to produce. What about a new Pentax body with exposure times to 2min, Liveview in the viewfinder, higher shutter speeds plus AF with pattern recognition and tracking?? and more... Regards, Rui Have you heard of bulb mode?

03-20-2008, 04:49 PM	#3
Busiko Guest	Originally posted by ricardobeat Have you heard of bulb mode? With BULB mode the problem remains. Use it and abuse it then tell me.

03-20-2008, 06:14 PM	#4
clawhammer Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Logan, Utah Photos: Gallery Posts: 971	sounds intriguing, but just outta curiosity, do you have a source for this?

03-21-2008, 12:34 AM	#5
lithos Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS Posts: 3,261	If I didn't get booted out of that other forum for quoting a spammer $1500 to do her portfolio, I'd give you the link to that EOS that some guys rigged up with a Peltier cooling system for astrophotography.

03-21-2008, 01:38 AM	#6
ftpaddict Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Yurp Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,666

03-21-2008, 02:27 AM	#7
Ishpuini Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Antwerp, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,727	Even if it's true, I see no real need for it. The current Pentax Kx0D bodies have multiple exposure mode, which imho is an improvement on long exposures. Only problem may be the dark frame subtraction taking up time between shots, but still I prefer the results. We can go up to 9 times 30s, which is 4.5 minutes. I you would have said Pentax was working with Samsung on this I would have found it easier to believe, but with Hitachi? Wim

03-21-2008, 03:08 AM	#8
codiac2600 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Rockford, Illinois Posts: 2,027	Read the manual or own a K20D which state that Bulb can go for AS LONG AS YOU HOLD DOWN THE SHUTTER via page 96 and also from personal experience. Live view cuts off after 3 minutes not 60 seconds. No need for making up false statements.

03-21-2008, 04:42 AM	#9
Busiko Guest	Originally posted by ftpaddict PreGrant Publication Database Search Results: AN/pentax AND AN/hitachi in PGPUB Production Database

03-21-2008, 04:51 AM	#10
Busiko Guest	Originally posted by codiac2600 Read the manual or own a K20D which state that Bulb can go for AS LONG AS YOU HOLD DOWN THE SHUTTER via page 96 and also from personal experience. Live view cuts off after 3 minutes not 60 seconds. No need for making up false statements. Sorry Chris. I don't own a K20D nor I've ever read the manual. So I stand corrected by the numbers. Meanwhile I think someone should alert Pentax and Hitachi because maybe they are wasting their time on such a research and development. Their document: PreGrant Publication Database Search Results: AN/pentax AND AN/hitachi in PGPUB Production Database points at that direction. Overall IQ should benefit from that. Quote: [0046](f) Since the solid-state image pickup element is bonded to the substrate formed of silicon nitride having a favorable thermal conduction property (having a thermal conductivity of 90 W/mK), heat generated in the solid-state image pickup element can be radiated to the outside via the substrate quickly. When the solid-state image pickup device is used in a camera, therefore, exposure to light for a long time becomes possible. For example, it is also possible to take an image of a night view beautifully by conducting exposure to light for a long time. [0047](g) As described in (b), the warp of the light sensing face of the solid-state image pickup element can be made to coincide with or be approximate to the curvature of field. As for the light receiving quantity in the image peripheral part as well, the same light quantity as that in the image center part can be taken in, and a clear image can be obtained. In the color video image, therefore, it becomes possible to unify the color density in the image center and in the image peripheral part. Unquote. Sorry for taking your precious time. Regards Rui

03-21-2008, 11:55 AM	#11
ricardobeat Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brazil Posts: 376	You said "we have already noted the 30s limitation". My K100D and GX10 can go for minutes without trouble. I think the K100D will start producing an orange glow on the top part of the sensor a bit before 30 minutes of exposure, but that's way more than you need for normal night photography. There's nothing to be fixed, if you want a 6 hour exposure use film! More capacity will come with technology in the future, but it's not actually a problem. I think you misread that document. From what I understood, they are developing pixels that can "warp" themselves using heat to avoid light fall-off and loss of resolution in the corners of the sensor. No benefits for low-light photography, it will just make the image quality even across the frame, what would be incredible. The first part you quote (046) is probably the way CMOS sensors are already built.

03-21-2008, 01:47 PM	#12
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Originally posted by Busiko Sorry Chris. I don't own a K20D nor I've ever read the manual. So I stand corrected by the numbers. Meanwhile I think someone should alert Pentax and Hitachi because maybe they are wasting their time on such a research and development. Their document: PreGrant Publication Database Search Results: AN/pentax AND AN/hitachi in PGPUB Production Database points at that direction. Overall IQ should benefit from that. Quote: [0046](f) Since the solid-state image pickup element is bonded to the substrate formed of silicon nitride having a favorable thermal conduction property (having a thermal conductivity of 90 W/mK), heat generated in the solid-state image pickup element can be radiated to the outside via the substrate quickly. When the solid-state image pickup device is used in a camera, therefore, exposure to light for a long time becomes possible. For example, it is also possible to take an image of a night view beautifully by conducting exposure to light for a long time. [0047](g) As described in (b), the warp of the light sensing face of the solid-state image pickup element can be made to coincide with or be approximate to the curvature of field. As for the light receiving quantity in the image peripheral part as well, the same light quantity as that in the image center part can be taken in, and a clear image can be obtained. In the color video image, therefore, it becomes possible to unify the color density in the image center and in the image peripheral part. Unquote. Sorry for taking your precious time. Regards Rui got to admit, this looks like a "planned deformation" of the sensor iin order to match lens field curvature.. Nothing realy to do w/ long exposures. Other than that, a pretty neat idea...

03-21-2008, 04:21 PM	#13
Matjazz Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: EU/Slovenia Photos: Gallery Posts: 774	It's a known fact that during long exposures noise builds up because of heat. Leave a camera in bulb mode for long enough and you get a white frame. It is an area of photography where sensors still fall behind film considerably. Just try and make a night photo where stars rotate 15° and leave continuous trail (2h exposure)

03-21-2008, 05:17 PM	#14
Busiko Guest	Originally posted by ricardobeat You said "we have already noted the 30s limitation". My K100D and GX10 can go for minutes without trouble. I think the K100D will start producing an orange glow on the top part of the sensor a bit before 30 minutes of exposure, but that's way more than you need for normal night photography. There's nothing to be fixed, if you want a 6 hour exposure use film! More capacity will come with technology in the future, but it's not actually a problem. I think you misread that document. From what I understood, they are developing pixels that can "warp" themselves using heat to avoid light fall-off and loss of resolution in the corners of the sensor. No benefits for low-light photography, it will just make the image quality even across the frame, what would be incredible. The first part you quote (046) is probably the way CMOS sensors are already built. Acho que tem de ler novamente...

03-21-2008, 05:19 PM	#15
Busiko Guest	Originally posted by jeffkrol got to admit, this looks like a "planned deformation" of the sensor iin order to match lens field curvature.. Nothing realy to do w/ long exposures. Other than that, a pretty neat idea... (46)....therefore, exposure to light for a long time becomes possible. For example, it is also possible to take an image of a night view beautifully by conducting exposure to light for a long time.