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03-20-2008, 04:17 PM   #1
Busiko
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New Pentax CMOS sensor

We have already noted the 30s limitation for long exposures. Even the K20D liveview is limited to 60s continuous operation, switching off after that for cooling down. Yes, the sensor gets warm and that leads to warping of the substrate with the deterioration of IQ.
Pentax and Hitachi have been developing a new CMOS sensor that will overcome that limitation. Being an APS-C size, the producing method will allow for much better cooling, less warping of the sensor, and requiring less curvature correction from the lenses. That will allow for long time exposures to capture those beautiful night scenes. Also the component count will be less turning this sensor a lower cost to produce.
What about a new Pentax body with exposure times to 2min, Liveview in the viewfinder, higher shutter speeds plus AF with pattern recognition and tracking?? and more...
Regards,
Rui

03-20-2008, 04:24 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by Busiko Quote
We have already noted the 30s limitation for long exposures. Even the K20D liveview is limited to 60s continuous operation, switching off after that for cooling down. Yes, the sensor gets warm and that leads to warping of the substrate with the deterioration of IQ.
Pentax and Hitachi have been developing a new CMOS sensor that will overcome that limitation. Being an APS-C size, the producing method will allow for much better cooling, less warping of the sensor, and requiring less curvature correction from the lenses. That will allow for long time exposures to capture those beautiful night scenes. Also the component count will be less turning this sensor a lower cost to produce.
What about a new Pentax body with exposure times to 2min, Liveview in the viewfinder, higher shutter speeds plus AF with pattern recognition and tracking?? and more...
Regards,
Rui
Have you heard of bulb mode?
03-20-2008, 04:49 PM   #3
Busiko
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
Have you heard of bulb mode?
With BULB mode the problem remains. Use it and abuse it then tell me.
03-20-2008, 06:14 PM   #4
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sounds intriguing, but just outta curiosity, do you have a source for this?

03-21-2008, 12:34 AM   #5
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If I didn't get booted out of that other forum for quoting a spammer $1500 to do her portfolio, I'd give you the link to that EOS that some guys rigged up with a Peltier cooling system for astrophotography.
03-21-2008, 01:38 AM   #6
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03-21-2008, 02:27 AM   #7
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Even if it's true, I see no real need for it. The current Pentax Kx0D bodies have multiple exposure mode, which imho is an improvement on long exposures. Only problem may be the dark frame subtraction taking up time between shots, but still I prefer the results. We can go up to 9 times 30s, which is 4.5 minutes.

I you would have said Pentax was working with Samsung on this I would have found it easier to believe, but with Hitachi?

Wim
03-21-2008, 03:08 AM   #8
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Read the manual or own a K20D which state that Bulb can go for AS LONG AS YOU HOLD DOWN THE SHUTTER via page 96 and also from personal experience. Live view cuts off after 3 minutes not 60 seconds. No need for making up false statements.

03-21-2008, 04:42 AM   #9
Busiko
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QuoteOriginally posted by ftpaddict Quote



PreGrant Publication Database Search Results: AN/pentax AND AN/hitachi in PGPUB Production Database
03-21-2008, 04:51 AM   #10
Busiko
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Read the manual or own a K20D which state that Bulb can go for AS LONG AS YOU HOLD DOWN THE SHUTTER via page 96 and also from personal experience. Live view cuts off after 3 minutes not 60 seconds. No need for making up false statements.

Sorry Chris. I don't own a K20D nor I've ever read the manual. So I stand corrected by the numbers.

Meanwhile I think someone should alert Pentax and Hitachi because maybe they are wasting their time on such a research and development.
Their document:
PreGrant Publication Database Search Results: AN/pentax AND AN/hitachi in PGPUB Production Database

points at that direction. Overall IQ should benefit from that.
Quote:

[0046](f) Since the solid-state image pickup element is bonded to the substrate formed of silicon nitride having a favorable thermal conduction property (having a thermal conductivity of 90 W/mK), heat generated in the solid-state image pickup element can be radiated to the outside via the substrate quickly. When the solid-state image pickup device is used in a camera, therefore, exposure to light for a long time becomes possible. For example, it is also possible to take an image of a night view beautifully by conducting exposure to light for a long time.

[0047](g) As described in (b), the warp of the light sensing face of the solid-state image pickup element can be made to coincide with or be approximate to the curvature of field. As for the light receiving quantity in the image peripheral part as well, the same light quantity as that in the image center part can be taken in, and a clear image can be obtained. In the color video image, therefore, it becomes possible to unify the color density in the image center and in the image peripheral part.
Unquote.

Sorry for taking your precious time.
Regards
Rui
03-21-2008, 11:55 AM   #11
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You said "we have already noted the 30s limitation". My K100D and GX10 can go for minutes without trouble. I think the K100D will start producing an orange glow on the top part of the sensor a bit before 30 minutes of exposure, but that's way more than you need for normal night photography. There's nothing to be fixed, if you want a 6 hour exposure use film! More capacity will come with technology in the future, but it's not actually a problem.

I think you misread that document. From what I understood, they are developing pixels that can "warp" themselves using heat to avoid light fall-off and loss of resolution in the corners of the sensor. No benefits for low-light photography, it will just make the image quality even across the frame, what would be incredible.

The first part you quote (046) is probably the way CMOS sensors are already built.
03-21-2008, 01:47 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Busiko Quote
Sorry Chris. I don't own a K20D nor I've ever read the manual. So I stand corrected by the numbers.

Meanwhile I think someone should alert Pentax and Hitachi because maybe they are wasting their time on such a research and development.
Their document:
PreGrant Publication Database Search Results: AN/pentax AND AN/hitachi in PGPUB Production Database

points at that direction. Overall IQ should benefit from that.
Quote:

[0046](f) Since the solid-state image pickup element is bonded to the substrate formed of silicon nitride having a favorable thermal conduction property (having a thermal conductivity of 90 W/mK), heat generated in the solid-state image pickup element can be radiated to the outside via the substrate quickly. When the solid-state image pickup device is used in a camera, therefore, exposure to light for a long time becomes possible. For example, it is also possible to take an image of a night view beautifully by conducting exposure to light for a long time.

[0047](g) As described in (b), the warp of the light sensing face of the solid-state image pickup element can be made to coincide with or be approximate to the curvature of field. As for the light receiving quantity in the image peripheral part as well, the same light quantity as that in the image center part can be taken in, and a clear image can be obtained. In the color video image, therefore, it becomes possible to unify the color density in the image center and in the image peripheral part.
Unquote.

Sorry for taking your precious time.
Regards
Rui
got to admit, this looks like a "planned deformation" of the sensor iin order to match lens field curvature.. Nothing realy to do w/ long exposures. Other than that, a pretty neat idea...
03-21-2008, 04:21 PM   #13
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It's a known fact that during long exposures noise builds up because of heat. Leave a camera in bulb mode for long enough and you get a white frame. It is an area of photography where sensors still fall behind film considerably. Just try and make a night photo where stars rotate 15 and leave continuous trail (2h exposure)
03-21-2008, 05:17 PM   #14
Busiko
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
You said "we have already noted the 30s limitation". My K100D and GX10 can go for minutes without trouble. I think the K100D will start producing an orange glow on the top part of the sensor a bit before 30 minutes of exposure, but that's way more than you need for normal night photography. There's nothing to be fixed, if you want a 6 hour exposure use film! More capacity will come with technology in the future, but it's not actually a problem.

I think you misread that document. From what I understood, they are developing pixels that can "warp" themselves using heat to avoid light fall-off and loss of resolution in the corners of the sensor. No benefits for low-light photography, it will just make the image quality even across the frame, what would be incredible.

The first part you quote (046) is probably the way CMOS sensors are already built.
Acho que tem de ler novamente...
03-21-2008, 05:19 PM   #15
Busiko
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
got to admit, this looks like a "planned deformation" of the sensor iin order to match lens field curvature.. Nothing realy to do w/ long exposures. Other than that, a pretty neat idea...

(46)....therefore, exposure to light for a long time becomes possible. For example, it is also possible to take an image of a night view beautifully by conducting exposure to light for a long time.
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