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09-07-2013, 02:45 AM   #406
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QuoteOriginally posted by aglet Quote
I find under-exposure is a common issue on all my Pentax bodies and matrix and CWA metering is less predictable than it is on my Nikons or Canons.
Really? On the K-5 IIs? My (vanilla) K-5 has such a strong tendency to over-expose that I almost always have it set to EV -0.3 or -0.7 to avoid unrecoverable blown highlights. The K10D is a completely different story, though, its matrix metering seems to expose for the brightest areas no matter how small they are. The difference between the two cameras is extreme: When my son and I visited New York a month ago, I left my K-5 at EV -0.7 when we were shooting at Times Square late at night. In order to get the K10D, which he now uses, to perform nicely, I had to help him crank compensation up to +1.7 (He could of course just used manual exposure, but he's 14 and just learning to use a DSLR, I didn't want to do too much exposure education in the middle of Times Square at night )

Btw here's what he got at +1.7 (click for big flickr version):



09-07-2013, 06:25 AM   #407
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Can I ask what may be a stupid question. what's the big deal about a ff camera? I've really only ever used aps-c (well and a film Nikon way back). Just curious to understand the appeal.
09-07-2013, 06:44 AM   #408
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QuoteOriginally posted by dagaetch Quote
Can I ask what may be a stupid question. what's the big deal about a ff camera? I've really only ever used aps-c (well and a film Nikon way back). Just curious to understand the appeal.
I think there would be many answers. For most users, APS-C is "good enough," but the reasons that people want full frame that I have read are (in no particular order): (1) better optical viewfinder, (2) better high iso, (3) better dynamic range, (4) more options for narrow depth of field photography, and (5) "I'm used to have focal lengths behave on full frame and it's too hard figure out how they behave on APS-C." (The "I want my FA 31 limited to be a wide angle again" comment).
09-07-2013, 06:56 AM   #409
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think there would be many answers. For most users, APS-C is "good enough," but the reasons that people want full frame that I have read are (in no particular order): (1) better optical viewfinder, (2) better high iso, (3) better dynamic range, (4) more options for narrow depth of field photography, and (5) "I'm used to have focal lengths behave on full frame and it's too hard figure out how they behave on APS-C." (The "I want my FA 31 limited to be a wide angle again" comment).
One last thing you forgot to mention imho: nothing. Some (most actually) are happy with aps-c.

09-07-2013, 07:00 AM   #410
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think there would be many answers. For most users, APS-C is "good enough," but the reasons that people want full frame that I have read are (in no particular order): (1) better optical viewfinder, (2) better high iso, (3) better dynamic range, (4) more options for narrow depth of field photography, and (5) "I'm used to have focal lengths behave on full frame and it's too hard figure out how they behave on APS-C." (The "I want my FA 31 limited to be a wide angle again" comment).
I agree with the rest, but #3 is not accurate. I just checked DR performance at DXOMark:
K-5 II = 14.1
D800 = 14.4
5D Mk III = 11.7
09-07-2013, 07:05 AM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I agree with the rest, but #3 is not accurate. I just checked DR performance at DXOMark:
K-5 II = 14.1
D800 = 14.4
5D Mk III = 11.7
You are right (sort of). Throwing out Canon sensors as "behind the times." Shooting at equivalent isos, the D800 has one stop better dynamic range. The issue is that K5 has iso 80 available, while base iso for the D800 is 100.
09-07-2013, 07:09 AM   #412
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The difference between 14.1 EV and 14.4 EV is one stop?
09-07-2013, 07:22 AM   #413
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Looks like the new camera is here. Theta 360......

Now we can start talking about next year.
The year is not out yet. I think we need to wait for a few more weeks. I don't think nikon or canon have made their product announcement s yet. As a guess Pentax, if they have anything to announce will do so a week or two after canon nikon.

I think the last big canon announcement was the 70d a month or so ago so canon still has time to release something else before xmas. Same with nikon.

09-07-2013, 07:27 AM   #414
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You are right (sort of). Throwing out Canon sensors as "behind the times." Shooting at equivalent isos, the D800 has one stop better dynamic range. The issue is that K5 has iso 80 available, while base iso for the D800 is 100.
Looking at the graphs at dxo, there is a stop difference.
Btw, claimed iso 100 is measured 74 on D800 compared with 80/68 for the K-5II. Not much difference
09-07-2013, 07:28 AM   #415
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The difference between 14.1 EV and 14.4 EV is one stop?
If you read my post, I said "at the same iso." That is, at iso 100, dynamic range for the K5 II is measured at 13.85 while the D800 is measured at 14.1. At iso 200 the K5 II is measured at 12.9 EV, while the D800 is at 13.85. That is roughly one stop difference in dynamic range at the same iso. The K5 gets a special boost based on its now-mythical iso 80.
09-07-2013, 07:32 AM   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You are right (sort of). Throwing out Canon sensors as "behind the times."
Throwing out the market leader doesn't seem like a fair way to make your point. Canon probably sells as many FF's as the others combined.
09-07-2013, 07:41 AM   #417
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Funny we are comparing aspects of a 3500$ camera and a 899 dollars camera. K-5IIs is a great value indeed.
09-07-2013, 07:42 AM   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If you read my post, I said "at the same iso." That is, at iso 100, dynamic range for the K5 II is measured at 13.85 while the D800 is measured at 14.1. At iso 200 the K5 II is measured at 12.9 EV, while the D800 is at 13.85. That is roughly one stop difference in dynamic range at the same iso. The K5 gets a special boost based on its now-mythical iso 80.
So you are saying, you're going to use 200 ISO because? 14.1 and 13.85 is pretty much a negligible difference. That is the maximum DR the camera is capable of. When I am interested in maximum ISO I shoot at the ISO that gives me that. What the camera does at a higher ISO is pretty much irrelevant.

Sounds to me like you're arranging the truth to try and make a point. I see what you're saying... it just isn't useful information. I'd say, if you want maximum DR, you shoot at 100 ISO with both cameras, and there isn't much difference between them. If you don't want maximum DR, then what you said maybe makes sense.
09-07-2013, 08:01 AM   #419
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So you are saying, you're going to use 200 ISO because? 14.1 and 13.85 is pretty much a negligible difference. That is the maximum DR the camera is capable of. When I am interested in maximum ISO I shoot at the ISO that gives me that. What the camera does at a higher ISO is pretty much irrelevant.

Sounds to me like you're arranging the truth to try and make a point. I see what you're saying... it just isn't useful information. I'd say, if you want maximum DR, you shoot at 100 ISO with both cameras, and there isn't much difference between them. If you don't want maximum DR, then what you said maybe makes sense.
I am not trying to pick an argument with anyone. The reason why the sports iso score for the D800 is higher than the sports iso score for the K5 II on DXO Mark is because it holds onto dynamic range better throughout the iso range. That's all. The sports iso is a measure of when a camera drops below dynamic range of 9 EV, which for the K5 II is 1235 and for the D800 is 2853.

I like my K5 fine. I don't desperately need full frame. I am just trying to explain why some feel like they want full frame cameras and the ability to shoot at higher iso is intertwined with better dynamic range at similar isos.
09-07-2013, 08:05 AM   #420
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If you read my post, I said "at the same iso." That is, at iso 100, dynamic range for the K5 II is measured at 13.85 while the D800 is measured at 14.1. At iso 200 the K5 II is measured at 12.9 EV, while the D800 is at 13.85. That is roughly one stop difference in dynamic range at the same iso. The K5 gets a special boost based on its now-mythical iso 80.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I am not trying to pick an argument with anyone. The reason why the sports iso score for the D800 is higher than the sports iso score for the K5 II on DXO Mark is because it holds onto dynamic range better throughout the iso range. That's all. The sports iso is a measure of when a camera drops below dynamic range of 9 EV, which for the K5 II is 1235 and for the D800 is 2853.

I like my K5 fine. I don't desperately need full frame. I am just trying to explain why some feel like they want full frame cameras and the ability to shoot at higher iso is intertwined with better dynamic range at similar isos.
No problem.... if you said better DR at higher ISO's I would have had no problem with your comment. Saying the D800 is one stop better DR.. not true. You have to get something for the $2000 extra you spend on the camera body.
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