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09-07-2013, 07:28 AM   #421
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The difference between 14.1 EV and 14.4 EV is one stop?
If you read my post, I said "at the same iso." That is, at iso 100, dynamic range for the K5 II is measured at 13.85 while the D800 is measured at 14.1. At iso 200 the K5 II is measured at 12.9 EV, while the D800 is at 13.85. That is roughly one stop difference in dynamic range at the same iso. The K5 gets a special boost based on its now-mythical iso 80.

09-07-2013, 07:32 AM   #422
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You are right (sort of). Throwing out Canon sensors as "behind the times."
Throwing out the market leader doesn't seem like a fair way to make your point. Canon probably sells as many FF's as the others combined.
09-07-2013, 07:41 AM   #423
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Funny we are comparing aspects of a 3500$ camera and a 899 dollars camera. K-5IIs is a great value indeed.
09-07-2013, 07:42 AM   #424
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If you read my post, I said "at the same iso." That is, at iso 100, dynamic range for the K5 II is measured at 13.85 while the D800 is measured at 14.1. At iso 200 the K5 II is measured at 12.9 EV, while the D800 is at 13.85. That is roughly one stop difference in dynamic range at the same iso. The K5 gets a special boost based on its now-mythical iso 80.
So you are saying, you're going to use 200 ISO because? 14.1 and 13.85 is pretty much a negligible difference. That is the maximum DR the camera is capable of. When I am interested in maximum ISO I shoot at the ISO that gives me that. What the camera does at a higher ISO is pretty much irrelevant.

Sounds to me like you're arranging the truth to try and make a point. I see what you're saying... it just isn't useful information. I'd say, if you want maximum DR, you shoot at 100 ISO with both cameras, and there isn't much difference between them. If you don't want maximum DR, then what you said maybe makes sense.

09-07-2013, 08:01 AM   #425
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So you are saying, you're going to use 200 ISO because? 14.1 and 13.85 is pretty much a negligible difference. That is the maximum DR the camera is capable of. When I am interested in maximum ISO I shoot at the ISO that gives me that. What the camera does at a higher ISO is pretty much irrelevant.

Sounds to me like you're arranging the truth to try and make a point. I see what you're saying... it just isn't useful information. I'd say, if you want maximum DR, you shoot at 100 ISO with both cameras, and there isn't much difference between them. If you don't want maximum DR, then what you said maybe makes sense.
I am not trying to pick an argument with anyone. The reason why the sports iso score for the D800 is higher than the sports iso score for the K5 II on DXO Mark is because it holds onto dynamic range better throughout the iso range. That's all. The sports iso is a measure of when a camera drops below dynamic range of 9 EV, which for the K5 II is 1235 and for the D800 is 2853.

I like my K5 fine. I don't desperately need full frame. I am just trying to explain why some feel like they want full frame cameras and the ability to shoot at higher iso is intertwined with better dynamic range at similar isos.
09-07-2013, 08:05 AM   #426
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If you read my post, I said "at the same iso." That is, at iso 100, dynamic range for the K5 II is measured at 13.85 while the D800 is measured at 14.1. At iso 200 the K5 II is measured at 12.9 EV, while the D800 is at 13.85. That is roughly one stop difference in dynamic range at the same iso. The K5 gets a special boost based on its now-mythical iso 80.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I am not trying to pick an argument with anyone. The reason why the sports iso score for the D800 is higher than the sports iso score for the K5 II on DXO Mark is because it holds onto dynamic range better throughout the iso range. That's all. The sports iso is a measure of when a camera drops below dynamic range of 9 EV, which for the K5 II is 1235 and for the D800 is 2853.

I like my K5 fine. I don't desperately need full frame. I am just trying to explain why some feel like they want full frame cameras and the ability to shoot at higher iso is intertwined with better dynamic range at similar isos.
No problem.... if you said better DR at higher ISO's I would have had no problem with your comment. Saying the D800 is one stop better DR.. not true. You have to get something for the $2000 extra you spend on the camera body.
09-07-2013, 08:45 AM - 2 Likes   #427
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QuoteOriginally posted by mamethot Quote
Funny we are comparing aspects of a 3500$ camera and a 899 dollars camera.
Whatever it takes to prove the fact that Pentax is DOOMED, I say!
09-07-2013, 08:56 AM   #428
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If you read my post, I said "at the same iso." That is, at iso 100, dynamic range for the K5 II is measured at 13.85 while the D800 is measured at 14.1. At iso 200 the K5 II is measured at 12.9 EV, while the D800 is at 13.85. That is roughly one stop difference in dynamic range at the same iso. The K5 gets a special boost based on its now-mythical iso 80.
Again, look at the curves and what the measured iso is. The D800 is pretty much 0.5 step better thougout the iso span when you look at the curves (toggled to print). This 0.5 step is because of the sensor size, the curves more or less align when comparing in screen mode.

09-07-2013, 09:11 AM - 1 Like   #429
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QuoteOriginally posted by dagaetch Quote
Can I ask what may be a stupid question. what's the big deal about a ff camera? I've really only ever used aps-c (well and a film Nikon way back). Just curious to understand the appeal.
Before 2010, sensor technology was improving quite rapidly. We were getting sensors with more megapixels, better high ISO performance, greater dynamic range every two years or so. So you could upgrade every two or three years and have a reasonable chance of getting something significantly better. Photographers, especially gear-centric enthusiasts, became accustomed to upgrading to something better every two years. It became a central part of the excitement of their hobby. Then in 2010, the improvement of sensors suddenly came to a stop. The 16MP sensor used in the K-5 (introduced in 2010) is still the best APS-C sensor out there, and the sensor used in Nikon D3s (introduced in 2009), is still the best high ISO sensor. For many photographers shooting APS-C, the only way to feed their upgrade addiction was to move to a larger sensor, because that was seen as the only way to acquire a camera that would constitute, in their minds, a significant upgrade. Hence the mania for FF.

I'm of course generalizing here. What I have written doesn't apply to all photographers.
09-07-2013, 09:13 AM   #430
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
Again, look at the curves and what the measured iso is. The D800 is pretty much 0.5 step better thougout the iso span when you look at the curves (toggled to print). This 0.5 step is because of the sensor size, the curves more or less align when comparing in screen mode.

I feel like you have to repeat yourself about 5 times to stop the nonsense.

At 100 ISO according to the above posts the K-5 is rated at 13.85 and the D800 . That's .25 EV, as I said, pretty much negligible.
Not only that the K5II will focus in 2EV less light. And really even if the D800 is .5 stop better that also is pretty much negligible.

I guess it's just tough to admit... in the ultimate sense, you could buy a k-5 over a D800 and never notice the difference. The important thing here is, if you don't need the resolution, buying a D800 over a K-5 for the extra DR is pretty much a bad idea for most of the world. I've heard from a lot of users that they prefer the D800 over the K-5, but not for dynamic range, where the K-5 excels. The D800 just excels a little more. A very little bit more.
09-07-2013, 09:50 AM   #431
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I guess it's just tough to admit... in the ultimate sense, you could buy a k-5 over a D800 and never notice the difference. The important thing here is, if you don't need the resolution, buying a D800 over a K-5 for the extra DR is pretty much a bad idea for most of the world. I've heard from a lot of users that they prefer the D800 over the K-5, but not for dynamic range, where the K-5 excels. The D800 just excels a little more. A very little bit more.
The key is to buy whatever fits the lenses you want to use. If you want to do low light ultra wide angle photography, I guess the D800 with the Nikkor 14-24/2.8 is very hard to beat. In fact, Pentax makes no lenses that are even close to that wide. If, on the other hand, weight is an important concern to you and you don't really care about the most extreme wide angle focal lengths, the K-5 (II, IIs) + DA15 combo is just ridiculously small and light compared to that Nikon combo.
09-07-2013, 10:18 AM   #432
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Then in 2010, the improvement of sensors suddenly came to a stop. The 16MP sensor used in the K-5 (introduced in 2010) is still the best APS-C sensor out there, and the sensor used in Nikon D3s (introduced in 2009), is still the best high ISO sensor.
I have a feeling the earthquake and Tsunami has some role in this. Aristophanes will probably contradict me but I'd bet there was considerable time and expense lost re-orienting sensor fab tables and adjusting to the slowed Japanese economy (hell, the world economy - the Earthquake took about 1.8% growth off global GDP for a year!).
09-07-2013, 12:20 PM   #433
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I have a feeling the earthquake and Tsunami has some role in this. Aristophanes will probably contradict me but I'd bet there was considerable time and expense lost re-orienting sensor fab tables and adjusting to the slowed Japanese economy (hell, the world economy - the Earthquake took about 1.8% growth off global GDP for a year!).
I heard they were down for a few weeks because of power supply issues and the compulsory, rotating blackouts. But the whole supply chain locked up.

Japan is hit by hundreds of earthquakes, so most plants and facilities are buffered to some degree. Think of spinning all that glass and a tremor comes along, which they do...frequently.
09-07-2013, 12:42 PM   #434
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
The key is to buy whatever fits the lenses you want to use. If you want to do low light ultra wide angle photography, I guess the D800 with the Nikkor 14-24/2.8 is very hard to beat. In fact, Pentax makes no lenses that are even close to that wide. If, on the other hand, weight is an important concern to you and you don't really care about the most extreme wide angle focal lengths, the K-5 (II, IIs) + DA15 combo is just ridiculously small and light compared to that Nikon combo.
Thats a pretty unfair comparison though. D600 + AF-D 20mm is not thaaat heavy. Not k-x + DA 15 small and light, but still not that heavy.

DA 15 starburst is the bees knees though
09-07-2013, 01:03 PM   #435
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andi Lo Quote
Thats a pretty unfair comparison though. D600 + AF-D 20mm is not thaaat heavy. Not k-x + DA 15 small and light, but still not that heavy.
It wasn't meant to be a "fair comparison", it was just meant to show that you may want to start with the kind of photography you want to do and how you want to carry your equipment around, then think about the kind of lenses you need, and then think about which camera system that may suit that purpose and have that kind of lens.

(And besides, while the weight difference isn't that big, the D600 combo is quite a bit bigger)
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