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09-16-2013, 02:39 AM   #571
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In all fairness to Olympus and m4/3 users, Pentax users are the last ones that should be pointing towards limitations of any other group or a system. It just sounds .. ridiculous, coming from our own camp that lives in fantasy land of big expectations.

09-16-2013, 02:50 AM   #572
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
In all fairness to Olympus and m4/3 users, Pentax users are the last ones that should be pointing towards limitations of any other group or a system. It just sounds .. ridiculous, coming from our own camp that lives in fantasy land of big expectations.
Yeah sure " You're a Pentax user? Shut up! first sell your gear and then criticize." I will close my world for any other brand than Pentax in order not to live through the agony of not being able to express my opinion. Or I will not take your advice and just go on saying the m43 sensor is too small.
09-16-2013, 03:07 AM   #573
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
One of key points Olympus wanted to show in the show in Melbourne, was how well the E-M1 goes against the FF camera. Photographers were invited to test both cameras on the spot, using professional studio lighting and professional models, and print results on an A2 and even larger. There was no way to judge which one was which.
I'll say again, it was pity that people representing Ricoh didn't do the same to demonstrate K5II and DA HD Ltds.
We've seen these demonstrations a lot. You could even do it with a Q7, but it never seems to really change the purchasers perception of the fact that Canon/Nikon are better. Because the issue isn't really sensor size. That is a red herring. The issue is placement and advertisement and in both of these areas in the United State (don't know about Australia), both Pentax and Olympus are in bad shape.
09-16-2013, 03:25 AM   #574
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Yeah sure " You're a Pentax user? Shut up! first sell your gear and then criticize." I will close my world for any other brand than Pentax in order not to live through the agony of not being able to express my opinion. Or I will not take your advice and just go on saying the m43 sensor is too small.
No, I meant that instead of criticising, we could just leave them alone and maybe learn from the good points they do better.
But that a Pentaxian should point to someone's 'fault' and laugh at it, is rather a sign of own serious identity crisis.

09-16-2013, 03:30 AM   #575
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
We've seen these demonstrations a lot. You could even do it with a Q7, but it never seems to really change the purchasers perception of the fact that Canon/Nikon are better. ..
'Better' is a relative term. Correct way to put it would be 'only more mature'. However with maturity, we also lose lots of fun. And that is one reason people are looking for players other than Nikon and Canon to bring in something fresh. For a few years people were looking at Pentax, for example, but nothing happened there. But if tradiional camera manufacturers can't, Apple will.

So don't underestimate people's desire to give the new a rightful chance to prove itself. Especially if the new has enough prospects to become even better and, overall, even more fun to use.

iPhone has changed our idea of what is simple yet highly effective photographer's tool, and almost silently Apple has become the most influential camera maker in the world. Not Nikon nor Canon, but Apple defined how our future 'serious cameras' must look like and how they should be designed. Why was that possible? Becuas Apple was seriously and uncompromisingly innovating.

Similarly, Olympus may as well change our idea what a good and fun to use traditional looking yet very capable camera may be in the modern age.

Last edited by Uluru; 09-16-2013 at 04:30 AM.
09-16-2013, 03:48 AM   #576
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
That's true for every product. Some are more versatile than others, that's it and Pentax is IMO in a sweet spot on this.
But Canikon have limitations too, so does 43 and so does APS/Pentax too.
Of course that every system has advantages (even 4/3, probably ) and limitations. That was a reference to some of their marketing, mostly related to AF.

In the case presented by Uluru, I think Olympus had a great idea, though if I were Pentax I would put the best 645D image I could get, as a wall-sized print, next to their stand. Just because.
09-16-2013, 04:30 AM   #577
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
One of key points Olympus wanted to show in the show in Melbourne, was how well the E-M1 goes against the FF camera. Photographers were invited to test both cameras on the spot, using professional studio lighting and professional models, and print results on an A2 and even larger. There was no way to judge which one was which.
I'll say again, it was pity that people representing Ricoh didn't do the same to demonstrate K5II and DA HD Ltds.
If you need a professional studio, that creates perfect lighting conditions, with professional models, which are no doubt professionally groomed to show zero flaws, just to mimic the IQ of larger format gear with a smaller format camera, then that tells me that latter gear must be a lot better.

Only pro's have studios to play in, and the skills, knowledge and experience to overcome the disadvantages of smaller format cameras. The amateur enthusiasts on the other hand wants to have the same high IQ when they're running around after their kids, grandkids and pets. And when they're taking pics late at night at parties, at amusement parks, concerts. And when they're landscaping on their holidays at any given time of the day.

So I think such demonstrations work backwards.
09-16-2013, 04:36 AM   #578
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
....

So I think such demonstrations work backwards.
Not at all. Such demos are highly convincing, because camera is highly capable in less than ideal conditions. In fact, any demo is far more convincing than a non-presence, lethargic and lifeless presence -- in all latest shows --- of the camera brand and maker this forum is dedicated to.


Last edited by Uluru; 09-16-2013 at 04:55 AM.
09-16-2013, 04:44 AM   #579
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Not at all. Such demos are highly convincing, because camera is highly capable in less than ideal conditions. In fact, any demo is far more convincing than a lethargic and lifeless presence -- in all latest shows --- of the camera brand and maker this forum is dedicated to.
So first you state that professional studio lighting and professional models are used to create ideal conditions for the smaller format camera to shoot in. But now you're talking about less then ideal conditions. That's it, I give up again.
09-16-2013, 04:54 AM   #580
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
So first you state that professional studio lighting and professional models are used to create ideal conditions for the smaller format camera to shoot in. But now you're talking about less then ideal conditions. That's it, I give up again.
In short, it's good for pros working in studio. Also, you can put in in humid and cold and wet place and it will work too. Ideal and less than ideal conditions. One can't do that with 6D, or D600, right?
That was the point.
09-16-2013, 05:23 AM   #581
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Uluru Said: ----"Also, you can put in in humid and cold and wet place and it will work too. Ideal and less than ideal conditions. One can't do that with 6D, or D600, right?"


D600 works great in the cold and wet.

Last edited by spade111; 09-16-2013 at 05:26 AM. Reason: quote
09-16-2013, 05:34 AM   #582
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
In short, it's good for pros working in studio. Also, you can put in in humid and cold and wet place and it will work too. Ideal and less than ideal conditions. One can't do that with 6D, or D600, right?
That was the point.
The lack of WR gets totally overschadowed by the fact that the smaller format camera NEEDS that pro studio perfect lighting and pro models to perform as the bigger brothers. In photography WR doesn't tend to be as important as IQ. A D600 or D6 can be given WR with a plastic baggy and rubber band costing around $0.02. The really big spenders can do it a $5.- rain sleeve.

"Look! This Fiat Panda can do 200km/h, when going downhill, wheighed down, with the perfect wind speed and wind direction, and in the slipstream of an Audi A6." Such a demonstration only tells me it's not going to be able to do the same under less then ideal conditions and the Audi A6 probably is. It only confirms its inferiority. That the Panda can be parked in half a spot then gets totally overshadowed by the previous fact. People are just going to search for a better spot.

But you're right, I see now how it works on some people.
09-16-2013, 06:19 AM   #583
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
In short, it's good for pros working in studio. Also, you can put in in humid and cold and wet place and it will work too. Ideal and less than ideal conditions. One can't do that with 6D, or D600, right?
That was the point.
I think we can all agree that most cameras shine in a studio setting. Hey, my wife and I went to a professional last year who turns out great results and she was shooting with a Canon D50. She is comfortable with the camera, can print as big as she wants. In that setting, in particular, the camera isn't a big deal.

The question that separates these cameras really is how they do in situations that push away from that ideal setting. I don't mean rain -- my wife seldom shoots portraits in the rain. More lower light settings. Twilight, under trees -- it is just so easy to see your iso creaping up into the 800 to 1600 range and that is the reason why people elect to get full frame. I get it. Under good lighting, even iso 6400 looks OK on a K5, in poor lighting, not so much...
09-16-2013, 06:22 AM - 1 Like   #584
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Hey Clavius - I would pick a Panda over an A6 any day! Gobbles up way to many microscopic fossils per kilometer for my tastes, and anyway, going 200km/h is illegal in Denmark and lethal in all countries Also, parking matters to me: This week I did about 400 damage on our cars by backing one of them into the front of the other one, thereby killing all my hopes of justifying a K5ii-purchase... wouldn't have happened with a Panda, I bet!

Which goes to show nothing except that priorities vary with the values of the people doing them. And now, if you two wouldn't mind, I subscribed to this thread to keep up with news about "New Camera before Christmas" - not to keep up with the details about what Uluru and Clavius consider the ideal testing conditions for camera comparisons... surely that topic is worth it's own thread?
09-16-2013, 06:44 AM - 1 Like   #585
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QuoteOriginally posted by MetteHHH Quote
I subscribed to this thread to keep up with news about "New Camera before Christmas" - not to keep up with the details about what Uluru and Clavius consider the ideal testing conditions for camera comparisons.
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