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09-16-2013, 12:35 PM   #586
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
In all fairness to Olympus and m4/3 users, Pentax users are the last ones that should be pointing towards limitations of any other group or a system. It just sounds .. ridiculous, coming from our own camp that lives in fantasy land of big expectations.
Well, one of the main reasons why Olympus has come under shareholder pressure lately was their model line was over laden with far too many models. Pentax, OTOH has been a restrained company i that respect.

Olympus has also tried saturation strategies with older models swamped into the bargain bins and newer models priced too high for value. I've never seen that type of inventory management from Pentax (except the Q a wee bit lately,but even that was nothing like some of the EP series I've literally seen in a bargain bin).

Remember: Olympus was forced out of the SLR biz decades ago. Pentax always stayed in. Olympus has often failed when punching above its weight class. Pentax has always stayed well within. They have very different philosophies.


Last edited by Aristophanes; 09-16-2013 at 04:31 PM.
09-16-2013, 02:24 PM   #587
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Remember: Olympus was forced out of the SLR biz decades ago. Pentax always stayed in. Olympus has often failed when punching above its weight class. Pentax has always stayed well within. They have very different philosophies.
Pentax was once *the* camera brand. When Nikon's and Canon's cameras weren't so close. A first brand ever to reach 10 million lenses made, was seen everywhere, etc.

Today's Pentax brand is a shadow of its former self, so I don't know what is exactly their league, or have they never tried to punch above?
Pentax surely did intend to punch above with several film cameras, especially when their position dropped down, and everyone was expecting them to come back again. They did try to have the FF digital among the first. Pentax surely does punch now with the K5, etc.

Thus maybe they are not over-saturating the market because they know that even if they go through its fire, they wouldn't survive the smoke. Their lungs aren't big enough anymore.

And once former Asahi's division was bought by Hoya, in reality, Pentax did go out of business. However, those moves done then, a series of last recorded brilliant moves, were the last straw that is somehow still keeping them alive and on people's radars.
09-16-2013, 02:49 PM   #588
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Yeah, but they did the "popular" route, not the "pro" - their best selling cameras being the Spotmatic and the K1000.
They didn't tried to punch above Olympus style, I remember the 4/3 launch - Oly was touting the new system and the E1 as "pro", and they launched some excellent, expensive Zuiko lenses to match their claims (including a 300 f/2.8). From their press release: "Four Thirds is the first professional standard for digital SLR photography". And, unlike Pentax, heavy marketing was involved.
Now, Olympus appears to be trying again the "pro with small sensor" approach, with the E-M1 - "a compact system camera as powerful as a professional DSLR".

Pentax had a very different approach; the *istD, followed by multiple variations until we got really bored; only after the amazing K10D they started the DA* line. Too late to save them from Hoya.
IMO their best game would be a continuous series of well-placed (even if not strongest) punches. Like those who kept them alive, but not only now and then
09-16-2013, 04:41 PM   #589
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Now, Olympus appears to be trying again the "pro with small sensor" approach, with the E-M1 - "a compact system camera as powerful as a professional DSLR".
People buy by price. Olympus is trying sell against the concept that price will be a function of the sensor size, not feature set.

Thy will sell well initially to loyalists, then sales will fall off a cliff as people realize they don't need all the esoteric features and can get better IQ for a lot less.

Small sensor + big features = low volume

Bigger sensor + middle features = higher volume

All you need in the latter is to be just close enough in features to the tope-nd to steal huge chunks of their biz.

Can you say WR and 2 control wheels and a pentaprism?

09-16-2013, 04:59 PM   #590
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Small sensor + big features = low volume Bigger sensor + middle features = higher volume
Maybe. Assuming a customer that understands the feature set and can see the difference in image quality. For the inexperienced buyer trying to make a decision it usually comes down to who has a better specification within a particular price bracket. When comparing two seemingly identical cameras and having no idea how to choose, the one with the higher MP, or faster FPS, or bigger LCD screen or any of a dozen other mostly irrelevant specifications will be used to make a decision. This is where a marketing driven company succeeds over an engineering driven company. By presenting a message to the consumer that makes their product appear different enough to trigger a buying decision over the competition.

In Costco there are two huge pyramids of camera boxes. Which one do I buy? They look the same, they cost about the same, how do I decide? Ultimately it doesn't really matter to the buyer, they will be happy with either but they don't know that. They just want some fact that allows them to make a simple decision. And I am not sure how many buyers will understand the difference between "fantastic APS-C sensor" and "fantastic full frame sensor". I think for most of the buying public that is just words on the box that mean nothing to them.
09-16-2013, 05:28 PM   #591
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Maybe. Assuming a customer that understands the feature set and can see the difference in image quality. For the inexperienced buyer trying to make a decision it usually comes down to who has a better specification within a particular price bracket. When comparing two seemingly identical cameras and having no idea how to choose, the one with the higher MP, or faster FPS, or bigger LCD screen or any of a dozen other mostly irrelevant specifications will be used to make a decision. This is where a marketing driven company succeeds over an engineering driven company. By presenting a message to the consumer that makes their product appear different enough to trigger a buying decision over the competition.

In Costco there are two huge pyramids of camera boxes. Which one do I buy? They look the same, they cost about the same, how do I decide? Ultimately it doesn't really matter to the buyer, they will be happy with either but they don't know that. They just want some fact that allows them to make a simple decision. And I am not sure how many buyers will understand the difference between "fantastic APS-C sensor" and "fantastic full frame sensor". I think for most of the buying public that is just words on the box that mean nothing to them.
There aren't many inexperienced buyers shelling out $1700 for a camera and lens. At least I hope not.
09-16-2013, 05:50 PM   #592
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Maybe. Assuming a customer that understands the feature set and can see the difference in image quality. For the inexperienced buyer trying to make a decision it usually comes down to who has a better specification within a particular price bracket. When comparing two seemingly identical cameras and having no idea how to choose, the one with the higher MP, or faster FPS, or bigger LCD screen or any of a dozen other mostly irrelevant specifications will be used to make a decision. This is where a marketing driven company succeeds over an engineering driven company. By presenting a message to the consumer that makes their product appear different enough to trigger a buying decision over the competition.
Yes...and no.

The EM-1 is a $1399 camera and a K-50 is $699 camera with a bigger sensor.

It's a VERY expensive camera and to make full use of the smaller sensor you need pricey lenses.So you're over $2,000 right off with the new lens.

The only thing Olympus has going for it are the super-stocked specs and the modest smaller size. They're chasing away 80% of the market where there are "close enough" options for much less cash.

If Olympus is trying to turn themselves into a low volume, high end supplier they have their work cut out for them. A small sensor is a tiny slice of the market is going to be volatile.
09-16-2013, 07:03 PM   #593
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QuoteOriginally posted by halfspin Quote
Don't screw with the K-5's body design.
Would half an inch taller so I could hold it comfortably without the grip count as "screwing with" the design"? I'm tired of of choosing between getting cramps in my hand or my wrist/forearm.

09-16-2013, 08:24 PM   #594
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
The lack of WR gets totally overschadowed by the fact that the smaller format camera NEEDS that pro studio perfect lighting and pro models to perform as the bigger brothers. In photography WR doesn't tend to be as important as IQ. A D600 or D6 can be given WR with a plastic baggy and rubber band costing around $0.02. The really big spenders can do it a $5.- rain sleeve.
.
Or you can spend $0 because the D600 is WR already...
09-16-2013, 08:49 PM   #595
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
There aren't many inexperienced buyers shelling out $1700 for a camera and lens. At least I hope not.
Just got back from a week at Yellowstone. Saw quite a number of brand new (strap still shiny with creases in it) D800's and D600's along with quite a few Canon 5DmkIII's proudly carried by parents shooting pictures of little jimmy and ginny. So, yeah there are quite a few people who when they want a camera they buy the best, and that often means "whichever one costs the most" cause they don't have a clue. I'm not saying these folks were inexperienced, just that for what they were doing a good P&S or bridge camera or a M4/3 would have done just as well and been a lot less work to haul around.

Also saw plenty of pros (or enthusiasts) at sites with wildlife. Easily spotted by having a Nikon 800mm and a sherpa . At one spot where a wolf was rumored to be feeding I estimate there was over $100,000 of camera equipment setup along the road. And I think that is a VERY conservative estimate.
09-16-2013, 09:52 PM   #596
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QuoteOriginally posted by penguinsoda Quote
Oh bother.... Well.... guess I'll just have to keep laying on the ground for low level shots and making a fool of myself trying to get back up again... or keep taking faith pictures... aim the camera where I think I want since I can't see through the viewfinder/screen and have faith that I'll get something I can at least salvage in post... at least for a while... Since I don't care about FF at my level of expertise.
Since you write "viewfinder" i assume you use a DSLR....you do know that you can use one of these, right?
09-16-2013, 09:55 PM   #597
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Just got back from a week at Yellowstone. Saw quite a number of brand new (strap still shiny with creases in it) D800's and D600's along with quite a few Canon 5DmkIII's proudly carried by parents shooting pictures of little jimmy and ginny. So, yeah there are quite a few people who when they want a camera they buy the best, and that often means "whichever one costs the most" cause they don't have a clue.
Wow...must have been quite a sight with all Leica and Hassys in Yellowstone, then? (In comparison, D6/800 look almost cheap )
09-16-2013, 10:05 PM   #598
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No hassys but I did see two Leicas. No idea which ones but they looked small. Like a p&s.

Also saw two pentax i think k200d`s, a k-5, a k-7 and a k-x.

The fellow with the k-7 had it on a tripod with a new looking bigma. I asked if it was a k-5 just to start a conversation. He replied "i guess, i don`t really know". When i pointed out it was a k-7 he said "oh yeah i used to have a k-5 but i replaced it with this one when it came out". I moved on with a sigh...
09-16-2013, 10:13 PM   #599
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
When i pointed out it was a k-7 he said "oh yeah i used to have a k-5 but i replaced it with this one when it came out".
Some people fail to realise that when it comes to camera model numbering, less is more!
09-16-2013, 10:36 PM   #600
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
Some people fail to realise that when it comes to camera model numbering, less is more!
Indeed. I am very pleased that I have the ultimate top-of-the-line Pentax camera there is, and that can ever be, the K-01

Coming from Olympus to Pentax with the MZ-S, I'm still struggling to figure out how the LX and K2 relate, and to an MV1 and a MX.....not to mention the KX vs the K-x......
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