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09-17-2013, 08:23 AM   #616
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QuoteOriginally posted by narual Quote
Would half an inch taller so I could hold it comfortably without the grip count as "screwing with" the design"? I'm tired of of choosing between getting cramps in my hand or my wrist/forearm.
Different strokes for different folks. The K5 is perfect for my hand. But the D600 which is only slightly bigger in the grip kept giving me cramps and forced me into grip use. So a Lil bigger would upset me but make you happy.



09-17-2013, 08:42 AM   #617
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
Different strokes for different folks. The K5 is perfect for my hand. But the D600 which is only slightly bigger in the grip kept giving me cramps and forced me into grip use. So a Lil bigger would upset me but make you happy.
For me nothing comes close to the feeling of K10/K20 with DA 40

D600 is ergonomically a great pair with decent sized zoom lens like Tamron 28-75 or 70-300. I agree that smaller lenses dont seem very ergonomic on it. The weight distribution feels all wrong. maybe the way it's built is just necessary for an FF pentaprism and all that electronic gizmos? I know that ME super is half the size of DSLRS these days so it cant be just the prism. Ergonomically I like the D7000 more than the d600, but it's not full frame.
09-17-2013, 10:42 AM   #618
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
This is why I'd much rather shoot with my Pentax than Nikon. The larger body size and weight of the Nikon doesn't bother me that much, but going out and about with a comprehensive kit is a different matter altogether. Nikon lenses are so bulky, I can scarcely get three in my camera bag, whereas, I can carry six or, at a pinch, eight of my Pentax lenses, including the 60-250mm and the 300mm f4.
Thanks for the graphic picture, that really shows the difference in size. I may be wrong, but it always seemed to me that the various lens optical stabilization systems were somehow responsible for the size increase. Remember how Sigma had a 50-150 lens that was very competitive to Pentax's 50-135 (which i love). But then Sigma decided to incorporate OSS into it and it suddenly jumped in size.

The Nikon owners I know always seem very proud if they have lens with VR in it, they'll hold it up for my inspection and say something like: "and it has VR too". As a Pentax owner, it never seemed like a big deal to me since all my lenses had SR :-)

But its got to be more than the lens stabilization system making the lens large - because my Sony Nex kit lens 18-55 has stabilization in it and is not that large - course its a slower lens and that helps with size.

Went to a wooden boat festival 2 weeks ago, and i'll never forget this one gal who was lugging around a large backpack of her Canikon camera equipment with a tripod attached in the middle of a hot day - why? I think sooner or later, a generation of young people will come along who don't particularly like large camera/lens combos anymore, and the tide will turn, and rather suddenly. For that reason, I think Pentax and/or Sony may benefit enormously when the tide turns (on size :-)) Just my opinion and what do i know.

Rather than buy a camera last fall, i bought a photo quality printer (Epson R3000) and have enjoyed it enormously. And the great thing about printers, they don't go obsolete with new models every year :-). I'm probably in the wrong forum for that so will close with that small tip.
09-17-2013, 11:15 AM   #619
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Thanks for the graphic picture, that really shows the difference in size. I may be wrong, but it always seemed to me that the various lens optical stabilization systems were somehow responsible for the size increase. Remember how Sigma had a 50-150 lens that was very competitive to Pentax's 50-135 (which i love). But then Sigma decided to incorporate OSS into it and it suddenly jumped in size.

The Nikon owners I know always seem very proud if they have lens with VR in it, they'll hold it up for my inspection and say something like: "and it has VR too". As a Pentax owner, it never seemed like a big deal to me since all my lenses had SR :-)

But its got to be more than the lens stabilization system making the lens large - because my Sony Nex kit lens 18-55 has stabilization in it and is not that large - course its a slower lens and that helps with size.

Went to a wooden boat festival 2 weeks ago, and i'll never forget this one gal who was lugging around a large backpack of her Canikon camera equipment with a tripod attached in the middle of a hot day - why? I think sooner or later, a generation of young people will come along who don't particularly like large camera/lens combos anymore, and the tide will turn, and rather suddenly. For that reason, I think Pentax and/or Sony may benefit enormously when the tide turns (on size :-)) Just my opinion and what do i know.

Rather than buy a camera last fall, i bought a photo quality printer (Epson R3000) and have enjoyed it enormously. And the great thing about printers, they don't go obsolete with new models every year :-). I'm probably in the wrong forum for that so will close with that small tip.
Built-n motors are also a big size culprit I think. This is not, of course applicable in 50-150 case as I beleive the orginal 50-150 was already an HSS lens.
But it partly explains why modern lenses tends to be bigger. And pentax old screwdriven AF tech is a size advantage. No wonder Pentax didn't put motors in their DA Limited.

09-17-2013, 11:29 AM   #620
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Built-n motors are also a big size culprit I think. This is not, of course applicable in 50-150 case as I beleive the orginal 50-150 was already an HSS lens.
But it partly explains why modern lenses tends to be bigger. And pentax old screwdriven AF tech is a size advantage. No wonder Pentax didn't put motors in their DA Limited.
Perhaps when talking about longetivity, yes. As an anecdote though, I find that my Nikon lenses with AF-S (SDM) have higher keeper rate than the ones that are screw drive only, and I've heard similar reports on the net. Nikon's early attempts at sdm are rather similar to pentax (slow focus speed, not sure about it breaking), but have since caught up to their screw drive. I think both tech has its place, and thankfully all our limiteds have the screw drive to keep the size down.
09-17-2013, 11:39 AM   #621
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I doubt those people you saw went to Yellowstone just so they could take pictures of their kids. Do you think maybe they used FF DSLRs to take those pictures because it happened to be what they were carrying? I know if I'm on a vacation using my DSLR, I don't put it away and pull out my iPhone to snap a picture of my wife or whomever.
Maybe. No idea really, I didn't stop to talk to them. But the gear I noticed was shiny new and the people carrying it did not seem all that familiar with it. My point was only that there are people who think nothing of dropping 2-3 grand on a camera because they can afford it and they assume it will get them better pictures. Maybe it will. I'm not going to debate the photographer versus gear thing. These were people who were going on a 'trip of a lifetime' and wanted to make sure they had the best pictures they could get. I suspect taking a photography class would have improved the pictures more than a FF camera, but that's just my opinion.

The guy with the K-7 was no more familiar with his gear than the folks toting brand new MkIII's so it isn't just a FF thing. People there were trying to get the best images they could and many (most) seemed not all that familiar with any camera. But they were determined to record what the saw anyway.

What I saw was not a scientific study but I was surprised at the number of FF cameras I saw in the hands of people who did not have the other gear usually associated with 'photographers' they were just out with their families and the 5D MkIII was the 'family' camera. That is a high end market but I think a viable one for a company with the right message (small, ergonomic, light, WR, small lenses) In other words a light, easy to carry FF camera with good marketing has potential. And I cannot think of anyone better than Pentax to pull that off. If they get their act together.
09-17-2013, 11:44 AM   #622
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Maybe. No idea really, I didn't stop to talk to them. But the gear I noticed was shiny new and the people carrying it did not seem all that familiar with it. My point was only that there are people who think nothing of dropping 2-3 grand on a camera because they can afford it and they assume it will get them better pictures. Maybe it will. I'm not going to debate the photographer versus gear thing. These were people who were going on a 'trip of a lifetime' and wanted to make sure they had the best pictures they could get. I suspect taking a photography class would have improved the pictures more than a FF camera, but that's just my opinion.

The guy with the K-7 was no more familiar with his gear than the folks toting brand new MkIII's so it isn't just a FF thing. People there were trying to get the best images they could and many (most) seemed not all that familiar with any camera. But they were determined to record what the saw anyway.

What I saw was not a scientific study but I was surprised at the number of FF cameras I saw in the hands of people who did not have the other gear usually associated with 'photographers' they were just out with their families and the 5D MkIII was the 'family' camera. That is a high end market but I think a viable one for a company with the right message (small, ergonomic, light, WR, small lenses) In other words a light, easy to carry FF camera with good marketing has potential. And I cannot think of anyone better than Pentax to pull that off. If they get their act together.
So I was thinking as I read this that "until Pentax is sold in Best Buy they won't gain market share", but then I realized that may not be true anymore. Does anyone know where the majority of camera bodies are bought these days? Is it Best Buy, or online at Amazon, or elsewhere?
09-17-2013, 11:52 AM - 1 Like   #623
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I've run into the same number of D800 owners as Pentax owners in my limited sample.

Another small thing I learned. My K5 and lens is off for repair, and my co worker lent me his Canon Rebel with kit long zoom. A couple years old. If the K-500 IQ is close to the K-5, coupled with the 55-300, Pentax has a low price offering that is staggeringly better than Canon. The lens is pure trash, soft and very similar to 30 year old Pentax glass for CA. The body is surprisingly terrible even with moderately high ISO (1000).

I don't know what the low priced Nikons are like.

If someone had experience taking shots with one of these, ie. had kids, bought dslr from somewhere with a lens, looked at shots and was disappointed. Then they go on a trip. They wouldn't take their low price offering from Canon with them. If they didn't know better, they would buy whatever someone they asked said took great shots. Even if it cost a few $K.


Last edited by derekkite; 09-17-2013 at 12:01 PM.
09-17-2013, 11:58 AM   #624
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I used a D40 and 18-135 this week-end. The D40 wasn't all that bad but the 18-135 felt very cheap. It had severe zoom creep (not even needed to hold it down, just an angle was sufficient for the lens to come out), was wobbly and felt plasticky. My former DA 18-55 or even my DAL 70-300 feel a lot better than this.
09-17-2013, 12:05 PM   #625
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I don't see why a FF should be much larger than a aps-c larger mirror house and larger pentaprism, but pentax was able to make perfectly compact film slr's so why not for digital? The reason why full frames are bigger is mainly because they are pro dslrs which have always been bigger than consumer models for durability and ergonomic reasons. A D7000 is not much smaller than a D600.
09-17-2013, 12:15 PM   #626
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"I don't see why a FF should be much larger than a aps-c larger mirror house and larger pentaprism, but pentax was able to make perfectly compact film slr's so why not for digital? The reason why full frames are bigger is mainly because they are pro dslrs which have always been bigger than consumer models for durability and ergonomic reasons. A D7000 is not much smaller than a D600."

Certainly in time they will be smaller, but FF sensors with in-camera stabilization require larger mounts. Also, the hardware to process the data takes more space. More material generates more heat and that required larger and better heat removal systems. All that requires a a larger frame which inandof itself needs to be slightly heftier to carry all the added stuff.
09-17-2013, 12:23 PM   #627
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QuoteOriginally posted by narual Quote
Would half an inch taller so I could hold it comfortably without the grip count as "screwing with" the design"? I'm tired of of choosing between getting cramps in my hand or my wrist/forearm.
I fully agree.
I always have the grip on my K5 just because it lacks height.
The best sized of all cameras I ever used was the Olympus E3 (which, by the way, also had the best viewfinder)
09-17-2013, 12:26 PM   #628
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
I don't see why a FF should be much larger than a aps-c larger mirror house and larger pentaprism, but pentax was able to make perfectly compact film slr's so why not for digital? The reason why full frames are bigger is mainly because they are pro dslrs which have always been bigger than consumer models for durability and ergonomic reasons. A D7000 is not much smaller than a D600.
Compare a full frame DSLR with a film SLR with motor drive and 500 shot bulk film back since a FF DSLR has motor drive and SDXC slot.
09-17-2013, 12:30 PM   #629
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Compare a full frame DSLR with a film SLR with motor drive and 500 shot bulk film back since a FF DSLR has motor drive and SDXC slot.
09-17-2013, 12:33 PM   #630
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QuoteOriginally posted by K David Quote
FF sensors with in-camera stabilization require larger mounts.
I doubt this is the case; after all, there were non-stabilized FF cameras with mounts smaller than Pentax K. And the Minolta mount can accommodate in-body stabilization.
Of course, you're absolutely right when saying there are many things on the digital camera which simply needs space. The SR system itself, all the electronics, the back LCD... lots of things were added, compared even to a modern AF film camera.
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