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09-25-2013, 02:10 PM   #766
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The difference between a grip used currently with K-5 and integrated in the camera is huge. Our current grip is for holding a second battery or a tray off AA's and a second set off buttons. An integrated grip would make room for electronics that add to the performance off the camera.
This. This is why I think an integrated grip is important.

But hey, to each his own.

09-25-2013, 03:23 PM   #767
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An integrated grip would make the camera larger than necessary. I don't want a D800-sized camera; I'm OK with a slight increase in size but not that much.
YMMV. But you could always add a grip
09-25-2013, 03:24 PM   #768
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QuoteOriginally posted by Allison Quote
But hey, to each his own.
No way I would want an integrated grip for what I do, but I can surely see why some would want it. I guess the problem is that now you have two models, one with & one without. Where with the attachable grip you have one model plus an accessory. Which granted is not as nice as integrated but I wonder if Pentax can support two models with nearly the same specs? Maybe eventually.
09-25-2013, 03:49 PM   #769
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
but I wonder if Pentax can support two models with nearly the same specs?
I think Allison's point is that, if the integrated grip is filled with electronics instead of air the spec.s aren't the same - they are really two cameras. One for Pros with an integrated grip, one for enthusiasts with a detachable grip.

And need I write again, the thread is new cameras by Christmas?

09-25-2013, 04:02 PM   #770
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
And need I write again, the thread is new cameras by Christmas?
K-3 red, K-3 black, K-3 blue?

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I think Allison's point is that, if the integrated grip is filled with electronics instead of air the spec.s aren't the same - they are really two cameras.
Sure, I understand that, but Pentax has had trouble keeping one top shelf camera going. Not sure they will go for two. And I think integrated grip is a little specialized so even less volume. Not saying it would not be nice and the extra space could certainly be filled with all manner of goodies, just not sure the economics would work out at this time.

Does anyone have an integrated grip on an APS-C camera? Hmm...
09-25-2013, 04:09 PM   #771
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Enough electronics to fill a grip? I doubt it. And like jatrax said, I don't think Pentax can afford to split their flagship in two versions.
Besides, there are already too many large DSLRs; no need for another.
09-25-2013, 04:32 PM   #772
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
An integrated grip would make the camera larger than necessary. I don't want a D800-sized camera; I'm OK with a slight increase in size but not that much.
YMMV. But you could always add a grip
I say an inflatable grip is the solution...inflte it to the size of your liking
09-25-2013, 04:33 PM   #773
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
K-3 red, K-3 black, K-3 blue?


Sure, I understand that, but Pentax has had trouble keeping one top shelf camera going. Not sure they will go for two. ...
They must. Otherwise, they're no alternative to CaNikon, but are perceived as their copycats.
They must have something differentiating them clearly.
And that is more important thing to me to see, and will testify Ricoh's 'thinking differently" strategy — rather than some new, but still same DSLR concept K-3 camera beefed up with specs.
In other words, I don't see innovation as beefing up specs in same old shapes and concepts.

09-25-2013, 04:46 PM   #774
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The question is what is the ratio of people who want the grip outside of the forums? (or even in the forums)

Myself personally, I don't like the grip of the K5. I bought one, and returned it, found the camera was more comfortable to use without an additional grip.

I see the market deciding that an add on grip would probably be the best way for the manufacture in this price point, I see customers being grouped as such:

a) people who do not want a grip and would avoid cameras with built in grip

b) people who do not want a grip, but if the camera they love only came with a grip they would sitll buy

c) customers who want a grip integrated and will only buy as such

d) customers who want a grip, and don't mind adding it as an accessory

With A, B, D they cover a larger net of customers, and also can make extra income on accessories. I have a feeling there is more markup in an accessory than the camera itself, in terms of percentage.
09-25-2013, 05:04 PM   #775
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
In other words, I don't see innovation as beefing up specs in same old shapes and concepts.
I don't disagree in theory. But when you are the little guy can you afford to take chances on innovation? If you have a large market share with revenue streams you can take chances on things that 'might' be real winners. But if you don't have that, better to produce sure things that generate profit and build market share. You cannot afford to make bets and lose too many times.

A good solid DSLR with new sensor, improved IQ and a few other goodies from the laundry list will make a profitable, salable camera that appeals to many consumers. An incredibly innovative camera that the market is not ready for will be a cult classic and an economic failure. Maybe we will get something in the middle, a really salable camera that is innovative?

I'm all for innovation and agree with you 100% that if they want to be anything but a Nikon clone they need show everyone something different. But 'different' also has to be 'better' or it is just a curiosity not a salable product. I think the innovation will come, but they need to build market share and gain at least parity in things like flash, AF and lens line up.
09-25-2013, 05:16 PM   #776
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I don't disagree in theory. But when you are the little guy can you afford to take chances on innovation? .
It's the only way. Look at Fuji.

Word "innovate" sometimes mean filling the obvious gaps and exploiting chances that big players cannot or didn't cover. Innovation doesn't always mean a tech miracle, but rather a camera philosophy in a refreshingly different flavour. iPhone is an innovation in photography too, albeit with a poorly spec'd camera, but its popularity is enormous.

I'm still waiting for Ricoh to start innovating (*) and presenting to public.

* Those behind-the-curtain, under-the-kimono innovations that Ricoh's officials who've seen them brag about.
09-25-2013, 05:28 PM   #777
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
The question is what is the ratio of people who want the grip outside of the forums? (or even in the forums)

Myself personally, I don't like the grip of the K5. I bought one, and returned it, found the camera was more comfortable to use without an additional grip.

I see the market deciding that an add on grip would probably be the best way for the manufacture in this price point, I see customers being grouped as such:

a) people who do not want a grip and would avoid cameras with built in grip

b) people who do not want a grip, but if the camera they love only came with a grip they would sitll buy

c) customers who want a grip integrated and will only buy as such

d) customers who want a grip, and don't mind adding it as an accessory

With A, B, D they cover a larger net of customers, and also can make extra income on accessories. I have a feeling there is more markup in an accessory than the camera itself, in terms of percentage.
Shot a wedding last week with a K-5 and a K-5IIs. One had a grip the other didn't. After 5 hours of shooting, the grip was awesome to have. Usually I shoot without it. If I were shooting a lot of weddings, I'd buy another one and run both cameras with grips. So it's nice to have the option, but don't make it permeant/non detachable.
09-25-2013, 05:35 PM   #778
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Word "innovate" sometimes mean filling the obvious gaps and exploiting chances that big players cannot or didn't cover. Innovation doesn't always mean a tech miracle, but rather a camera philosophy in a refreshingly different flavour.
+1 I can agree with that. I just fear the mentality that you have to hit 'home runs' to win. Not true in my opinion. Home runs are flashy but those hitters strike out a lot too, singles and doubles win games over the long haul. No home runs, just steady improvements and innovations with regular product releases. That's what builds market share. Of course, advertising and marketing don't hurt.......
09-25-2013, 05:38 PM   #779
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Shot a wedding last week with a K-5 and a K-5IIs. One had a grip the other didn't. After 5 hours of shooting, the grip was awesome to have. Usually I shoot without it. If I were shooting a lot of weddings, I'd buy another one and run both cameras with grips. So it's nice to have the option, but don't make it permeant/non detachable.
Oh I won't dispute the usefulness of a grip, never ever. Its the only way i would use my D600 when I had it. I also will buy one for my D800 and Em5 in the near future, and probably one for the K"3" whenever it comes out and when I add it. I was going to buy one for the K5 as well, but with the K3 so close it would be foolish for me.

But yes, it has to be optional. Has to be.

Going hiking or biking with your camera you want something light weight. The grip can shave lots of time off your endurance. Example: I went biking on day with just my K5 and DA*16-50. I did the same route the next day with my D800 and 80-200 f2.8...quite a bit more weight. But by the half way point I was in noticeable pain. I've since only taken my Q bike riding and feel like I can go forever.
09-25-2013, 05:39 PM   #780
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
+1 I can agree with that. I just fear the mentality that you have to hit 'home runs' to win. Not true in my opinion. Home runs are flashy but those hitters strike out a lot too,
Old Pentax
QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
singles and doubles win games over the long haul. No home runs, just steady improvements and innovations with regular product releases. That's what builds market share. Of course, advertising and marketing don't hurt.......
New Pentax. That's who RICOH IS.

It's just around the corner.
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