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09-25-2013, 04:33 PM   #781
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
K-3 red, K-3 black, K-3 blue?


Sure, I understand that, but Pentax has had trouble keeping one top shelf camera going. Not sure they will go for two. ...
They must. Otherwise, they're no alternative to CaNikon, but are perceived as their copycats.
They must have something differentiating them clearly.
And that is more important thing to me to see, and will testify Ricoh's 'thinking differently" strategy — rather than some new, but still same DSLR concept K-3 camera beefed up with specs.
In other words, I don't see innovation as beefing up specs in same old shapes and concepts.

09-25-2013, 04:46 PM   #782
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The question is what is the ratio of people who want the grip outside of the forums? (or even in the forums)

Myself personally, I don't like the grip of the K5. I bought one, and returned it, found the camera was more comfortable to use without an additional grip.

I see the market deciding that an add on grip would probably be the best way for the manufacture in this price point, I see customers being grouped as such:

a) people who do not want a grip and would avoid cameras with built in grip

b) people who do not want a grip, but if the camera they love only came with a grip they would sitll buy

c) customers who want a grip integrated and will only buy as such

d) customers who want a grip, and don't mind adding it as an accessory

With A, B, D they cover a larger net of customers, and also can make extra income on accessories. I have a feeling there is more markup in an accessory than the camera itself, in terms of percentage.
09-25-2013, 05:04 PM   #783
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
In other words, I don't see innovation as beefing up specs in same old shapes and concepts.
I don't disagree in theory. But when you are the little guy can you afford to take chances on innovation? If you have a large market share with revenue streams you can take chances on things that 'might' be real winners. But if you don't have that, better to produce sure things that generate profit and build market share. You cannot afford to make bets and lose too many times.

A good solid DSLR with new sensor, improved IQ and a few other goodies from the laundry list will make a profitable, salable camera that appeals to many consumers. An incredibly innovative camera that the market is not ready for will be a cult classic and an economic failure. Maybe we will get something in the middle, a really salable camera that is innovative?

I'm all for innovation and agree with you 100% that if they want to be anything but a Nikon clone they need show everyone something different. But 'different' also has to be 'better' or it is just a curiosity not a salable product. I think the innovation will come, but they need to build market share and gain at least parity in things like flash, AF and lens line up.
09-25-2013, 05:16 PM   #784
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I don't disagree in theory. But when you are the little guy can you afford to take chances on innovation? .
It's the only way. Look at Fuji.

Word "innovate" sometimes mean filling the obvious gaps and exploiting chances that big players cannot or didn't cover. Innovation doesn't always mean a tech miracle, but rather a camera philosophy in a refreshingly different flavour. iPhone is an innovation in photography too, albeit with a poorly spec'd camera, but its popularity is enormous.

I'm still waiting for Ricoh to start innovating (*) and presenting to public.

* Those behind-the-curtain, under-the-kimono innovations that Ricoh's officials who've seen them brag about.

09-25-2013, 05:28 PM   #785
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
The question is what is the ratio of people who want the grip outside of the forums? (or even in the forums)

Myself personally, I don't like the grip of the K5. I bought one, and returned it, found the camera was more comfortable to use without an additional grip.

I see the market deciding that an add on grip would probably be the best way for the manufacture in this price point, I see customers being grouped as such:

a) people who do not want a grip and would avoid cameras with built in grip

b) people who do not want a grip, but if the camera they love only came with a grip they would sitll buy

c) customers who want a grip integrated and will only buy as such

d) customers who want a grip, and don't mind adding it as an accessory

With A, B, D they cover a larger net of customers, and also can make extra income on accessories. I have a feeling there is more markup in an accessory than the camera itself, in terms of percentage.
Shot a wedding last week with a K-5 and a K-5IIs. One had a grip the other didn't. After 5 hours of shooting, the grip was awesome to have. Usually I shoot without it. If I were shooting a lot of weddings, I'd buy another one and run both cameras with grips. So it's nice to have the option, but don't make it permeant/non detachable.
09-25-2013, 05:35 PM   #786
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Word "innovate" sometimes mean filling the obvious gaps and exploiting chances that big players cannot or didn't cover. Innovation doesn't always mean a tech miracle, but rather a camera philosophy in a refreshingly different flavour.
+1 I can agree with that. I just fear the mentality that you have to hit 'home runs' to win. Not true in my opinion. Home runs are flashy but those hitters strike out a lot too, singles and doubles win games over the long haul. No home runs, just steady improvements and innovations with regular product releases. That's what builds market share. Of course, advertising and marketing don't hurt.......
09-25-2013, 05:38 PM   #787
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Shot a wedding last week with a K-5 and a K-5IIs. One had a grip the other didn't. After 5 hours of shooting, the grip was awesome to have. Usually I shoot without it. If I were shooting a lot of weddings, I'd buy another one and run both cameras with grips. So it's nice to have the option, but don't make it permeant/non detachable.
Oh I won't dispute the usefulness of a grip, never ever. Its the only way i would use my D600 when I had it. I also will buy one for my D800 and Em5 in the near future, and probably one for the K"3" whenever it comes out and when I add it. I was going to buy one for the K5 as well, but with the K3 so close it would be foolish for me.

But yes, it has to be optional. Has to be.

Going hiking or biking with your camera you want something light weight. The grip can shave lots of time off your endurance. Example: I went biking on day with just my K5 and DA*16-50. I did the same route the next day with my D800 and 80-200 f2.8...quite a bit more weight. But by the half way point I was in noticeable pain. I've since only taken my Q bike riding and feel like I can go forever.
09-25-2013, 05:39 PM   #788
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
+1 I can agree with that. I just fear the mentality that you have to hit 'home runs' to win. Not true in my opinion. Home runs are flashy but those hitters strike out a lot too,
Old Pentax
QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
singles and doubles win games over the long haul. No home runs, just steady improvements and innovations with regular product releases. That's what builds market share. Of course, advertising and marketing don't hurt.......
New Pentax. That's who RICOH IS.

It's just around the corner.

09-25-2013, 06:56 PM   #789
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
They must. Otherwise, they're no alternative to CaNikon, but are perceived as their copycats.
They must have something differentiating them clearly.
And that is more important thing to me to see, and will testify Ricoh's 'thinking differently" strategy rather than some new, but still same DSLR concept K-3 camera beefed up with specs.
In other words, I don't see innovation as beefing up specs in same old shapes and concepts.
If I were running pentax I would have a stable of low priced to medium priced bodies with well established already developed technology, and have all the new stuff in the top of the line body. As the technology matures, production gets cheaper, sell it in the low cost bodies and come out with something new.

I think most do that but the crippling, for example the buffer issues with the d7100, would drive me to another brand.
09-25-2013, 07:39 PM   #790
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
If I were running pentax I would have a stable of low priced to medium priced bodies with well established already developed technology, and have all the new stuff in the top of the line body. As the technology matures, production gets cheaper, sell it in the low cost bodies and come out with something new.

I think most do that but the crippling, for example the buffer issues with the d7100, would drive me to another brand.
I'm guessing their strategy is to do part one nut move the technology down farther and faster to add value, and never "cripple." That's a high-volume manufacturing technique (SP500 anyone?)
09-25-2013, 08:11 PM   #791
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote


I'm still waiting for Ricoh to start innovating (*) and presenting to public.

* Those behind-the-curtain, under-the-kimono innovations that Ricoh's officials who've seen them brag about.
Theta
09-25-2013, 08:16 PM   #792
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Theta
Theta is an interesting gadget.
But because it has such a limited use, I thought of it to have a whole new life as a product integrated into another product. Say, into a pop up flash like feature that is integrated into a normal camera, does a 360 degree shot, and retracts back. Like the Pentax Q flash of sorts. I can see it in a MX-1 type of camera for example, integrated at the very edge (its body being part of grip), next to flash.
Just my idea, though.
09-25-2013, 11:34 PM   #793
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
They must. Otherwise, they're no alternative to CaNikon, but are perceived as their copycats.
They must have something differentiating them clearly.
And that is more important thing to me to see, and will testify Ricoh's 'thinking differently" strategy rather than some new, but still same DSLR concept K-3 camera beefed up with specs.
In other words, I don't see innovation as beefing up specs in same old shapes and concepts.
And why can't they do that with a single flagship? Why is one camera "being copycats", if by itself, but as soon as you add another it's "alternative"?
09-26-2013, 01:04 AM   #794
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QuoteOriginally posted by mamethot Quote
I say an inflatable grip is the solution...inflte it to the size of your liking
Or include a zipper so you can fill it with any material you like: an integrated bean bag!

Seriously, having a separate grip as an accessory is inherent to the DSLR concept IMHO. The basic priciple for this kind of system is modularity, i.e. the ability to build your camera to the need of the moment. Of course being able to use specialized lenses is the main advantage. The purpose of small pancakes for discreet and portable photography is defeated by putting them on a huge camera with an integrated grip, but on the other hand an extremely long lens requires much more of a counter balance than a small body can offer. With a separate grip, a camera can accomodate both needs...

Wim

Last edited by Ishpuini; 09-26-2013 at 01:10 AM.
09-26-2013, 12:00 PM   #795
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QuoteOriginally posted by Allison Quote
I can see your point about making the camera bigger or smaller, but if we are talking about a real pro model here, the grip should be integrated. Everyone who is going that kind of professional level shooting wants a grip. Plus, while it is not difficult, it is inconvenient to have to remove the grip to change batteries.
I sometimes use my K-5IIs with a grip, and sometimes without. I use it with a grip for one kilogram lenses (DA* 300mm f/4, DA* 60-250mm f/4) because the balance tends to be about equal between the camera and lens. But for my Sigma 500mm f/4.5 APO EX DG the balance is towards the lens and the grip is inconvenient.

It is possible to change the battery in the grip without removing the grip.
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