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10-05-2013, 02:19 AM - 1 Like   #901
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Well, i don't know why you think you need approval, but i suppose you could go to the head of your tribe, Pentax. Course Pentax isn't a tribe any longer, its just a "brand". Maybe if you contacted Ricoh, they could give you approval
I was being a tad sarcastic: I don't need your, or any one else's approval to do what I do or think the way I think. For your information, I am not wedded to Pentax, nor to DSLRs per se. I just happen to like the K-5 very much, and for those rare occasions where I want more pixels (note: want, not need), I have a D800. I like what I am reading and seeing about the K-3 and I reckon it will be fully capable of producing those "beautiful photographs" you mention.

10-05-2013, 07:03 AM   #902
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
One has to admit, that when camera sales are down 43% from 2012, that something momentous is happening to the photographic world. I stopped worshiping at the K-Mount Altar when i bought my first Nex camera 2 years ago. Today, I use my Pentax equipment in situations where it works best, and i use my mirrorless camera in situations where it works best. In the same way that i don't "worship" a camera manufacturer, I don't worship Stanley or Craftsman just because i may have their tools at hand.
Let me summarize.
QuoteQuote:
I stopped worshiping at the K-Mount Altar when i bought my first Nex camera 2 years ago.
You used to worship at the K-mount alter- I'm glad you've recovered. I can't imagine worshipping at any alter, however no one else has admitted they have, rather than than assume others do the same thing, you might want to consider that your were a special case.

QuoteQuote:
Use what you want to use, and if you can get the job done with a film camera - thats fine by me as well.
I was already using what I want to use, and it doesn't include a NEX. I have a Pentax Optio W10 for my small format camera, waterproof, shock proof. I have a Sigma DP2 because it gives me superior IQ in a small footprint on occasion. ALl people are asking would be that you acknowledge some of us get along without a Nex, and that doesn't make us one brand neanderthals. That characterization is completely out of line.
10-05-2013, 09:16 AM - 1 Like   #903
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
... I stopped worshiping at the K-Mount Altar when i bought my first Nex camera 2 years ago. Today, I use my Pentax equipment in situations where it works best, and i use my mirrorless camera in situations where it works best. In the same way that i don't "worship" a camera manufacturer, I don't worship Stanley or Craftsman just because i may have their tools at hand.

So spare me this drama over claims that mirrorless fans are trying to force their cameras on the unwashed dslr owners
I'm completely on board with the idea using the photo gear that suits you best. However, when I have written about my choices in the past, on this forum (I don't post about gear much anymore for obvious reasons), responses include the following. For the record I have a both DSLR and a MILC:

1) my mind was called "rubbish" when I described what I experience when looking through OVF vs. EVF,

2) I was ridiculed as irrelevant in photography because my gear is more than 2 years old,

3) I was accused of having alterior motives in stating a preference for OVF (the supposed motive being that the only possible reason someone could prefer using a DSLR is to protect a huge investment in lenses, because mirrorless machines are superior in every single way, and since personal cost is too transparent a motive, I hid it behind the OVF argument).

Thankfully, I haven't seen you engage in such personal vitriolic rhetoric. But there are some mirrorless advocates on this forum who do so. Their weapon of choice is a the verbal form of the whack-a-mole bat. Any expression of admiration or usefullness of non-milc gear is subjected to a swift beating. Using the best camera for the task at hand, indeed.

Such attitudes are non-becoming to photography enthusiasts, and it does in fact become tiresome to those of us on the receiving end.

Last edited by cfraz; 10-05-2013 at 09:38 AM.
10-05-2013, 09:31 AM   #904
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mazhe Quote
+1...
What is wrong with the K-mount?
I always read about a crippled K-Mount but in the past year i have never felt crippled by a limitation that could be caused by the K-Mount.
What is wrong ith it?

10-05-2013, 09:43 AM   #905
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote

I was already using what I want to use, and it doesn't include a NEX. I have a Pentax Optio W10 for my small format camera, waterproof, shock proof. I have a Sigma DP2 because it gives me superior IQ in a small footprint on occasion. ALl people are asking would be that you acknowledge some of us get along without a Nex, and that doesn't make us one brand neanderthals. That characterization is completely out of line.
Relax Normhead - I don't give a dang whether you use Nex, Optio, Samsung, or anything. I only speak of Nex because its the only camera other than Pentax that i can speak knowledgeably of. Yet, those of us that dare talk of non-traditional features get accused of "spreading propaganda". i have way more invested in Pentax than i do in Nex and if it serious photos i need - i rely on my Pentax camera.

I really would like to see Pentax gain significant market share, if only to protect my investment in lenses, but for other reasons as well. I have converted at least 2 others to buy into the Pentax system. It did disappoint me when Pentax decided not to follow-up on the K01. But Pentax is at 4% market share for a reason and i won't burden you with my opinon on that. Like you with Sigma, I tried out another company and found some features i like, and others i didn't. But it was and is a broadening and enlightening experience.
10-05-2013, 10:22 AM   #906
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QuoteOriginally posted by wigelII Quote
What is wrong with the K-mount?
I always read about a crippled K-Mount but in the past year i have never felt crippled by a limitation that could be caused by the K-Mount.
What is wrong ith it?
I should have said that I was sharing my misunderstanding of the MILC folks fantasizing in many ways about a compagny reputed for his traditionalist approach of photography, especially concerning SLR (they did part ways with samsung over that).

Nothing wrong with the K mount.
10-05-2013, 11:19 AM   #907
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Relax Normhead - I don't give a dang whether you use Nex, Optio, Samsung, or anything. I only speak of Nex because its the only camera other than Pentax that i can speak knowledgeably of. Yet, those of us that dare talk of non-traditional features get accused of "spreading propaganda". i have way more invested in Pentax than i do in Nex and if it serious photos i need - i rely on my Pentax camera.
You're distorting my words until nothing of the original meaning remains. We don't have anything at all with those people who simply likes non-DSLR cameras; and in fact we're glad they can choose cameras to their likings; just like we are glad that Pentax make camera to our liking.

This is MILC propaganda:
QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Pentax could easily bring out a new FF body right now as long as the mount wasn't k-mount. They could convert their existing FF lenses to the new mount thus cutting out 3rd party lens makers initially and hence make money off their own available lenses.
This is MILC propaganda as well:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If Pentax would use a new lens mount, they would make an adapter which would be OK. Not perfect, but if the rest of the camera was good enough to sell well and there were good new lens options with it, it certainly could be a hit.
And BS like this, way out of line, trying to portray the "enemy" as religious zealots:
QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
[...] I stopped worshiping at the K-Mount Altar when i bought my first Nex camera 2 years ago. [...] i don't "worship" a camera manufacturer[...]
QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I really would like to see Pentax gain significant market share, if only to protect my investment in lenses, but for other reasons as well. I have converted at least 2 others to buy into the Pentax system. It did disappoint me when Pentax decided not to follow-up on the K01. But Pentax is at 4% market share for a reason and i won't burden you with my opinon on that. Like you with Sigma, I tried out another company and found some features i like, and others i didn't. But it was and is a broadening and enlightening experience.
Implying that Pentax is at 4% market share because of the K-mount, when Nikon is doing much better with a mount not a bit more modern than that, is another example of MILC propaganda.

But, as I said, simply liking MILCs is fine, a perfectly normal preference.

Last edited by Kunzite; 10-05-2013 at 11:27 AM.
10-05-2013, 12:20 PM   #908
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You're distorting my words until nothing of the original meaning remains. We don't have anything at all with those people who simply likes non-DSLR cameras; and in fact we're glad they can choose cameras to their likings; just like we are glad that Pentax make camera to our liking.

This is MILC propaganda:

This is MILC propaganda as well:

And BS like this, way out of line, trying to portray the "enemy" as religious zealots:



Implying that Pentax is at 4% market share because of the K-mount, when Nikon is doing much better with a mount not a bit more modern than that, is another example of MILC propaganda.

But, as I said, simply liking MILCs is fine, a perfectly normal preference.
I would prefer a k mount. I just don't feel that I know the market well enough to know what would sell world wide. Obviously there are other companies over time (Canon, Sony, Olympus) who have launched new mounts for a variety of reasons. I personally doubt that Pentax would do such a thing, but I don't believe it would be the end of the world if they did.

10-05-2013, 01:05 PM   #909
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Wow, did PF hire DPR staff?
10-05-2013, 02:20 PM   #910
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would prefer a k mount. I just don't feel that I know the market well enough to know what would sell world wide. Obviously there are other companies over time (Canon, Sony, Olympus) who have launched new mounts for a variety of reasons. I personally doubt that Pentax would do such a thing, but I don't believe it would be the end of the world if they did.
Regardless of your intention, the idea that an adapter "would be OK" is a mantra often used by the MILC propaganda. Pentax could change the mount and it's not a big issue because all K-mount users could use adapters, and that "would be OK". No, it wouldn't, because we don't want to adapt our lenses to any system.

We're not mindless sheeps which could be ordered to change the system; and bossa's "argument" is based on this - that people would not care if it's a new mount, would not care about the lack of lenses, that there's no third-party support, and would simply buy it. As long as it's not K-mount.
10-05-2013, 02:31 PM   #911
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Regardless of your intention, the idea that an adapter "would be OK" is a mantra often used by the MILC propaganda. Pentax could change the mount and it's not a big issue because all K-mount users could use adapters, and that "would be OK". No, it wouldn't, because we don't want to adapt our lenses to any system.

We're not mindless sheeps which could be ordered to change the system; and bossa's "argument" is based on this - that people would not care if it's a new mount, would not care about the lack of lenses, that there's no third-party support, and would simply buy it. As long as it's not K-mount.
Why does this bring so much anger/animosity out of you? I am invested in lenses and camera bodies -- quite a few -- and they are all k mount lenses. So, of course, I want to see more k mount cameras. But, I honestly don't know if we will be shooting with SLRs in 10 years or if we will have moved on to something different (better?). Pentax got killed when digital started up, primarily because they waited so long to launch a digital SLR. Certainly a mirrorless camera like the K-01 isn't the answer, although it certainly did keep the K mount intact.

I just don't know what the future holds, but I think there is going to be a movement away from SLRs at some point. Canon/Nikon will hold off as long as they can since they are fairly entrenched in the SLR market, but I do think for average people a Nikon V1 is probably as good an option as any SLR out there.
10-05-2013, 02:57 PM   #912
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But we're not talking about what might happen in 10 years, about some unforeseeable future, and I'm not saying Pentax should ignore the market changes. It's about Pentax giving up their DSLRs now, for no good reason.

I would only agree if their position would be "after fixing the K-mount, Pentax should seriously consider entering the large sensor MILC market, to gain a foothold there and be able to quickly adapt to an eventual market shift". But it isn't. They think DSLRs are evil and we're religious zealots.

Last edited by Kunzite; 10-05-2013 at 03:04 PM.
10-07-2013, 09:04 AM - 1 Like   #913
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
But we're not talking about what might happen in 10 years, about some unforeseeable future, and I'm not saying Pentax should ignore the market changes. It's about Pentax giving up their DSLRs now, for no good reason.
.
I could be totally wrong, but my impression is that companies often give up on products (in this case a camera model) when such products no longer sell significantly in the marketplace. They don't give up products because of a coupla posts on the internet

But i don't think it will be 10 years before something happens to the DSLRs. Sony doesn't give out numbers but there were reports earlier in 2013 that their A-mount sales weren't satisfying so they've already announced that the SLT concept is no more. They also mentioned that the Nex models were making a profit. Then we read that they are shifting efforts to produce a FF Nex (mirrorless of course) as a priority over other camera projects. That announcement was several months ago. There have been repeated rumors recently that not just one, but 2 Nex FF Nex cameras will be issued in October 2013 and that a FF A-mount will be announced in 2014. So you have a company that is not happy with its DSLR-like sales, and has the capability and sensors to disrupt the status-quo in the market place. Sony has already manufactured the RX-1, a FF mirrorless camera with a fixed lens. Since they did that, they certainly can do the ILC camera.

I just can't conceive that Canon and Nikon are going to sit idly by, and watch Sony have the only mirrorless ILC FF cameras without starting their own efforts towards a mirrorless ILC FF cameras (that ultimately will replace the DSLR). Sure, Sony doesn't have, i think, the lenses to compete full on with the Nikon and Canon lines, but third party lens mfrs could help with that. I don't know what Pentax has in the works, they are so good at keeping secrets :-)

So, i don't think it will even be 5 years before we see something happening to the DSLR type cameras. Meanwhile, I'll continue to use my APS size Pentax and Sony cameras because i don't want to carry around larger lenses, but some day.... i might buy one if the price comes down to something i can consider :-)
10-07-2013, 09:21 AM   #914
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just don't know what the future holds, but I think there is going to be a movement away from SLRs at some point. Canon/Nikon will hold off as long as they can since they are fairly entrenched in the SLR market, but I do think for average people a Nikon V1 is probably as good an option as any SLR out there.
My wife is about as average as they come (and I guess I'm closer to average than most Forum members). She's absolutely delighted with the Q/02/06 with its tiny sensor I gave her to upgrade from her Optio A40 (which she also enjoyed). She actually takes more photos than I do, prints someting every week (uploaded to Walgreens and picked up in an hour) and displays on the web on her blog. For her right now a V1 would be overkill but I expect Pentax will release some iteration of a APSc MILC someday (Qx?)

I imagine there are several orders of magnitude more photographers in the world like her than like the members of PF.

As much as I theoretically object to adapters I've had more fun with the Q and the K>Q adapter than just about any photography tool since I got the K10D. The reality is, if I can have electrical contacts and AF functionality with my current lenses, how does an adapter differ from the Auto Extension Tube Set K I've had for decades?
10-07-2013, 09:59 AM - 1 Like   #915
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
So, i don't think it will even be 5 years before we see something happening to the DSLR type cameras. Meanwhile, I'll continue to use my APS size Pentax and Sony cameras because i don't want to carry around larger lenses, but some day.... i might buy one if the price comes down to something i can consider :-)
5 years is also my upper limit estimate for some such cameras from Canon and Nikon. And I think I am being ultra-cautious. Ricoh/Pentax will almost certainly be prepared well before then just in case - they are not stupid.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
As much as I theoretically object to adapters I've had more fun with the Q and the K>Q adapter than just about any photography tool since I got the K10D. The reality is, if I can have electrical contacts and AF functionality with my current lenses, how does an adapter differ from the Auto Extension Tube Set K I've had for decades?
It is pretty much the same. Arguments against such an adapter appear to be classic FUD: spreading "fear, uncertainty, doubt".

It isn't a case of all cameras switching over at once, and all lenses having to be adapted at once! The process will take years, and I would expect Ricoh/Pentax to carry its customer base with it to continue its strategy of building credibility as a company to that can be relied on.
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