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10-10-2013, 09:35 AM   #991
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
Medium format was designed to be ...well, a tad larger than average.
Not sure it was designed to be larger just for the sake of it. It had to be because of the huge mirrors. I never saw a Mamiya RF, so I don't know how large that was. Clearly, it had to use a larger film, so it couldn't be 35mm size. I have an old folding bellows camera in my collection that's a lot smaller than a Nikon D4, for instance.

10-10-2013, 11:14 AM   #992
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
Clearly, it had to use a larger film, so it couldn't be 35mm size. I have an old folding bellows camera in my collection that's a lot smaller than a Nikon D4, for instance.
Yup that's the thing - larger format. Maybe it's just me, but the imbalance between too-compact body size and inevitable lens size and weight makes things look odd from both visual and ergonomic point of view. I'd mount a larger camera most of the time on a tripod, and if a medium format's going to have more weight and grip in the lens than in the body, then manufacturers better start making adjustable tripod mounts for the lenses thereon, to keep it balanced.
10-10-2013, 11:18 AM   #993
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
if a medium format's going to have more weight and grip in the lens than in the body, then manufacturers better start making adjustable tripod mounts for the lenses thereon, to keep it balanced.
Or figuring out a way to make the image capture mechanism part of each lens itself . . . . . .
10-10-2013, 01:42 PM   #994
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would love for Pentax to have a variable automatic crop mode specifically made for each DA lens. The DA 40 and 70 both are pretty close to full frame compatible, but with pretty dark corners wide open and certainly you wouldn't want an APS-C crop on those, although truthfully I would probably just crop after the fact.
Hey, dark corners would just be like the vignetting offered by many programs - but without the extra work As you mentioned - one doesn't have to shoot wide open.

Yep , manual cropping would work fine. but considering how many new Pentax lenses are affected, they still would be better off offering it.

Does anyone know how my DA 50-135 would vignette on a FF?? Again i suppose it relates to the f-stop and the wider FL.

10-10-2013, 02:13 PM   #995
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Or figuring out a way to make the image capture mechanism part of each lens itself . . . . . .
GXR-esque?
10-10-2013, 02:27 PM   #996
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
GXR-esque?
Lytro
10-11-2013, 09:37 AM   #997
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Hey, dark corners would just be like the vignetting offered by many programs - but without the extra work As you mentioned - one doesn't have to shoot wide open. Yep , manual cropping would work fine. but considering how many new Pentax lenses are affected, they still would be better off offering it.
They won't take the chance. Imagine the complaints to customer service as new FF owners use DA lenses on their new cameras and get 'defective' pictures? There will be an automatic crop for any detected DA line lens. They might add the option to turn it off, but the default has to be cropped. I agree for experienced users with a good collection of DA lenses having the option to crop in PP would be good. But taking a chance your camera gets complaints because you allow the use of lenses in a non-optimal manner? Not gonna happen, IMHO.
10-11-2013, 10:43 AM   #998
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
They won't take the chance. Imagine the complaints to customer service as new FF owners use DA lenses on their new cameras and get 'defective' pictures? There will be an automatic crop for any detected DA line lens. They might add the option to turn it off, but the default has to be cropped. I agree for experienced users with a good collection of DA lenses having the option to crop in PP would be good. But taking a chance your camera gets complaints because you allow the use of lenses in a non-optimal manner? Not gonna happen, IMHO.
I see your point, but I thought i had read somewhere that Nikon allows that on their FF cameras - i could be wrong As long as they put the caution in one's manual (that noone reads), I don't see it as too big a problem. They already put precautions in APSc dslr manuals about which lenses will have which disabled features. Anyway, i'd like to have that feature.

10-11-2013, 10:54 AM   #999
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Anyway, i'd like to have that feature.
Agree. It allows the maximum creativity of the user. We'll see if Ricoh caters to enthusiasts who know how to use their gear or soccer moms that shoot in green mode. Hmm, maybe that's an idea. Auto-crop in green, allow the user to decide in other modes?

Of course now we are arguing about the details that Ricoh will put into a FF camera instead of whether they will make one......
10-11-2013, 11:07 AM   #1000
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
They won't take the chance. Imagine the complaints to customer service as new FF owners use DA lenses on their new cameras and get 'defective' pictures? There will be an automatic crop for any detected DA line lens. They might add the option to turn it off, but the default has to be cropped. I agree for experienced users with a good collection of DA lenses having the option to crop in PP would be good. But taking a chance your camera gets complaints because you allow the use of lenses in a non-optimal manner? Not gonna happen, IMHO.
These will be upper end users who are comfortable with post processing. I think automatic crop would be the default setting, but with the option to turn it off.
10-11-2013, 02:53 PM   #1001
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
They won't take the chance. Imagine the complaints to customer service as new FF owners use DA lenses on their new cameras and get 'defective' pictures? There will be an automatic crop for any detected DA line lens. They might add the option to turn it off, but the default has to be cropped. I agree for experienced users with a good collection of DA lenses having the option to crop in PP would be good. But taking a chance your camera gets complaints because you allow the use of lenses in a non-optimal manner? Not gonna happen, IMHO.
DA and DA* lenses do not have a consistent image circle corresponding to an APS-C sensor. Each lens must be taken on its own merits, and each lens may have a different image circle at different focal lengths, and the degree of vignetting (if any) may vary with aperture. A single automatic crop for any lens designated DA or DA* would be inconvenient. Inability for users to override this per lens would be a massive blunder that might slow the take-up of an FF camera.

For example, from my own personal tests, the DA* 55mm f/1.4 and DA* 300mm f/4 are FF lenses. The DA 10-17mm vignettes at the wide end but is usable at the long end. And so on - I've tested all my Pentax lenses by putting them on a 35mm film camera and shooting rolls of film and having those scanned in.

There is a thread here which has built up evaluations of lots of Pentax lenses.

In addition, since a teleconverter enlarges the image circle, that too must be taken into account. A 1.4 teleconverter on a crop-lens might make it nearly FF.
10-11-2013, 03:17 PM   #1002
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
Not sure it was designed to be larger just for the sake of it. It had to be because of the huge mirrors. I never saw a Mamiya RF, so I don't know how large that was. Clearly, it had to use a larger film, so it couldn't be 35mm size. I have an old folding bellows camera in my collection that's a lot smaller than a Nikon D4, for instance.
Mamiya RF...if memory serves me....used 120/220 film. Was medium format.

I have a Mamiya 220 Pro F TLR....medium format with 3 lenses An 80mm F 2.8 'normal'....55 mm Wide Angle and 180mm Super Telephoto. Bought it new in '84.

Used my hand held Sekonic Light meter....a great camera.
10-11-2013, 03:26 PM   #1003
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
DA and DA* lenses do not have a consistent image circle corresponding to an APS-C sensor. Each lens must be taken on its own merits, and each lens may have a different image circle at different focal lengths, and the degree of vignetting (if any) may vary with aperture. A single automatic crop for any lens designated DA or DA* would be inconvenient. Inability for users to override this per lens would be a massive blunder that might slow the take-up of an FF camera.

For example, from my own personal tests, the DA* 55mm f/1.4 and DA* 300mm f/4 are FF lenses. The DA 10-17mm vignettes at the wide end but is usable at the long end. And so on - I've tested all my Pentax lenses by putting them on a 35mm film camera and shooting rolls of film and having those scanned in.

There is a thread here which has built up evaluations of lots of Pentax lenses.

In addition, since a teleconverter enlarges the image circle, that too must be taken into account. A 1.4 teleconverter on a crop-lens might make it nearly FF.
I thought Nikon autmomatically crops DX lens when on a FX body. IF that is the case it was not a blunder on their part. As doubt I will get a FF Pentax I have no dog in this fight but do think it would be best to have a menu override, perhaps even being able to select which lenses. My DA35 and Da70 are used routinly on my film cameras. IF I was to get a FF DSLR I would wish them to work FF when I wished them to. But totally understand why it would not be the default setting. Should be like the ability to use aperature rings by a change in the menu
10-11-2013, 05:08 PM   #1004
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Crop mode.
Like DA lenses on a Pentax FF
So what use is that ?
10-11-2013, 05:54 PM   #1005
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
A and DA* lenses do not have a consistent image circle corresponding to an APS-C sensor. Each lens must be taken on its own merits, and each lens may have a different image circle at different focal lengths, and the degree of vignetting (if any) may vary with aperture. A single automatic crop for any lens designated DA or DA* would be inconvenient. Inability for users to override this per lens would be a massive blunder that might slow the take-up of an FF camera.
All true. And ideally the camera would know what the 'right' crop is for each lens and do so automagically, (in green mode anyway). But I don't believe any other camera maker does that, please correct me if I'm wrong, so I think it will most likely be a 'safe' crop that makes sure all DA lenses will work as expected. I think the option to NOT crop would be great, I'm not so sure Ricoh will take the risk of getting bad press/comments on a camera that takes vignetted pictures. Not everyone has the experience to know what is going on, and those who don't are often the most vocal.

But we are speculating on possible features or non-features of a purely speculative camera..............
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