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08-02-2013, 11:34 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
There's enough material here for a whole congress to cite Fawlty Towers...
Lol, with Ricoh being the rat in the biscuit tin in the health inspector episode, for some folks it seems.

Better to let the dust settle on all this name changing and consequent revision of websites. In any case, Ricoh bought Pentax to help Ricoh not Pentax. The #1 rule is that nothing stays the same. The Pentax name may be downgraded or even disappear (though I doubt it myself). Sad to some, perhaps, but change like this should not be a surprise. Besides, there is little to obsess about if Ricoh keep Pentax's core values which are pretty close to Ricoh's anyway so far as cameras go - notably well-built equipment offering solid value and made for photographers above all. We've just seen a classic example of that in the new Ricoh GR. What's not to like?

08-02-2013, 11:38 AM - 4 Likes   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Someone please explain something to me...

When Pentax was still with Hoya, I could type the URL: HOME | RICOH IMAGING and ended up in really Pentaxy site.

Now with Ricoh, I type in HOME | RICOH IMAGING and end up on a Ricoh site. With the only reference to Pentax is the logo still on the camera bodies. Pentax bodies next to Ricoh cameras as well. That must be next in line to change, because it's really confusing. I honestly really do think the name "Pentax" is going to disappear.
Both links go to www.Pentax.com. In the USA, at least, the image branding is still "Pentax. A Ricoh Company" Of course that could be another example of Pentax USA being late updating thier website - but then it could be intentional, that PENTAX as a brand name is more important in the USA than in Japan, where Ricoh is the more powerful name.

In any case, the white K-50 featured on the Home Screen clearly has PENTAX in large black letters across the flash hump. I bet the camera has Pentax Digital Camera manufactured by Ricoh Imaging Corp, Ltd. printed on the bottom, too.

What's the issue?

P.S. My company, the second largest globally in our business (but owned by the LARGEST conglomerate in the overall broad industry) was acquired by the 7th largest company in our business (which was owned by the 4th largest conglomerate in the overall broad industry).

For some time our public name was (Acquiring Co. Name Acquired CO.Name). In March it changed to Acquiring Company Name. No references to my old company anywhere. Just never existed. Down the memory hole. The sins of the father . . . . Through their excesses and fatal errors, by association, our corporate parent had ruined the oldest remaining brand in our industry.

Sometimes the brand name that WE think is so important has negative associations that we overlook. Is it possible that people associate Pentax with old men who shoot film? With high school students who shoot brassy K1000's? With the totally failed sales / service model in USA? With Hoya Dealer Agreement policies that no amount of pleading sales calls will ever smooth over (that one is real)? With failed SDM motors? With Thom Hogan articles? With, "Excellent, but . . . " reviews? With quirky cameras for enthusiasts but not for consumers? With quirky cameras for enthusiasts but not for professionals? With quirky cameras for APSc enthusiasts who have sweet pancakes and mountains of old K-mount lenses, but Pentax doesn't have any new FF glass?

Is it possible that Ricoh became the 267th largest company on Earth buying good companies with failed brands and applying the Ricoh name to them? If so why would they not do that in cameras? Is it possible the brand is already more damaged than we are willing to admit and Ricoh is being especially expedient - in order to preserve the patents and technology - to SAVE the K-mount?

Is it possible that Ricoh became the 267th largest company on Earth buying failed companies with good brands and applying the Ricoh name to them? If so why would they not do that in cameras? Is it possible the brand is still stronger than you are willing to admit and Ricoh is being especially expedient - in order to preserve the patents and technology - to SAVE the K-mount?

I don't know the answer in digital imaging. But in my business, all of our systems and products and processes have replaced all of their systems and products and processes, even though all of their managers have replaced all but one of our managers. The other guys - the BUYER'S employees - have had to learn new systems and change all their business models. I just keep plugging along.

It has all happened to me before - in 31 years in this business I've had 16 business cards, but I've never changed my telephone number. And last week they gave me another new box of 500 of their business cards - and asked me to hand them my box of my business cards so they could be destroyed.

I really don't know. I really, truly don't know anything. I'm just thinking out loud here - but I've lived through this so many times that I know this. Even truly boneheaded, 30-year-old self-absorbed B-School jerks don't throw away good brands. They just don't do it.

And GOOD managers REALLY WORK to rescue good brands.

So think before you post - there might be more to this than you know.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-05-2013 at 10:38 AM.
08-02-2013, 12:52 PM   #63
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I would say that wrong info, confusing layout and badly updated info/news is more a rule than an exception for global companies. If you want to find stuff, search on forums or similar because usually even the search engine is broken. I think one main problem is that the website departments are a long long way from the guys in charge in the organization map, they are just something "you need to have" not something you actually want to deal with.

Check out Samsung, they actually know way less than Pentax/Ricoh when it comes to what they are selling and finding the correct things in the support section is hard/dead links.
08-02-2013, 12:53 PM   #64
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Monochrome, great post.

There's risk with investing in Pentax gear. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money in the Canon/Nikon camp.

Of course, like most of you, I invested in Pentax. We can either stay the course or abandon ship. I choose to stay... for now.

08-02-2013, 01:17 PM   #65
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Excellent post, monochrome, but the difference is that we, on this forum, are photographers; we are the end-users, not the executives who set the strategy. We each come to this from a position of self-interest. We are invested in the brand and if the brand heads south then we get hit in the pocket whether it goes out of business or simply changes course for Dullsville. So, in a way anyway, I don't really care what Ricoh's strategy is or how brilliant other people say it is, but I surely do care if it turns out not to involve the kind of photography I do and the kind of equipment I need.

Of course, this has nothing to do with a couple of changed pages on a website. Or with the "old geezer" problem although I had to leave the local Pentax forum for my country and come over to this one after realizing I was likely the youngest person on it by 176 years. Still, while I do like Pentax cameras, after the adventures of the past few years it's not surprising folks are a little wary.
08-02-2013, 01:28 PM   #66
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The Pentax brand will "go south" only if we'll give up. Ricoh are not interested in killing it, even if they're treating it as any other brand owned by them.
08-02-2013, 02:02 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Excellent post, monochrome, but the difference is that we, on this forum, are photographers; we are the end-users, not the executives who set the strategy. We each come to this from a position of self-interest. We are invested in the brand and if the brand heads south then we get hit in the pocket whether it goes out of business or simply changes course for Dullsville
Well that's the essential kernel of truth in all the threads and posts we've had here for the last 18 months. Each day another Pentaxian looks at his or her mountain of gear, counts the remaining value and thinks, "Chuck it." (or something close to that).

Who knows. Tomorrow might be my day. Happy Plan and all.

FWIW, I am an optimist. I look forward to late August. But I surely wish these tight-lipped company men would say something, anything once in a while.
08-02-2013, 02:16 PM   #68
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I have mentioned the example of the Volkwagen Group and its parts, like Audi, Bugatti, etc. The branding there was clearly chiselled so the brand name is in prominent place, not the holding company's name. When you search for Audi cars you end up on Audi-cars-only webpage. Because Audi talks to — consumer market.

"Pentax cameras and sports optics" is a consumer oriented trading brand, and has been so for decades.

Pentax, however, was also involved in health and medicine products and research, works for government, military, police, etc. The situation is somewhat similar to the Leica brand, in which "Leica cameras and sport optics" do not own the Leica name trademark per se, but pay royalties to the real Leica, whose work is involved in industry and b2b sector.

Consumer oriented Leica, and industry oriented Leica, aren't the same, but the Leica Cameras has its own website and talks in consumer terms.

Yesterday I went to the Pentax USA Facebook page and guess what Monochrome — the logo on the left has changed to "Ricoh — Imagine, Change." Well, they've changed it all, yes. If there was no red Pentax K50 photo in the header, I would have no clue I'm on old Pentax Cameras facebook page.

To whom Ricoh communicates via the Facebook — businesses or consumers? I believe it's the latter, but what I see now is that Ricoh is screwing up Pentax Cameras and Sports Optics, a big time, even thru its consumer communication. What they want to say — that they actually stand behind Pentax cameras?

Like who really cares what is the holding company name?!? Can't they jus give consumers like me a break from all that business tirade and make the Pentax cameras brand name finally into an experience I'm looking forward to enjoy?

(unless they really want Pentax product brand to disappear and be substituted with "Ricoh" — in not so distant future)

That they are not as subtle or as smart as Volkwagen AG, or that want something entirely else — quite changed — it's now more than obvious. At least it all smells awfully fishy to me — those guys appear to have no clue about the consumer market.

Or they have a "plan". Well, this guy below also had a plan, or better to say:

"The time has come. Execute Order 66."




Last edited by Uluru; 08-02-2013 at 02:31 PM.
08-02-2013, 02:44 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Yesterday I went to the Pentax USA Facebook page and guess what Monochrome — the logo on the left has changed to "Ricoh — Imagine, Change." Well, they've changed it all, yes. If there was no red Pentax K50 photo in the header, I would have no clue I'm on old Pentax Cameras facebook page.
At least we get one more slogan now: "imagine. change" to complement "Serious. Color." I don't think any of those slogan will make it to any anthology of the 100 most brilliant slogans in modern business, but at least they are open for interpretation. What do you think "change" signifies here? And is "Serious. Color" a slap in the face to those among us that think that they are perhaps pushing this color-strategy a bit too much?

Ok. Apart from being personally invested in this - it is in my interest to know if the company is heading in a direction that supports my preferences, to be honest they haven't done that lately - this Pentax/Ricoh is actually a damned interesting business case.
08-02-2013, 02:55 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by H. Sapiens Quote
At least we get one more slogan now: "imagine. change" to complement "Serious. Color." I don't think any of those slogan will make it to any anthology of the 100 most brilliant slogans in modern business, but at least they are open for interpretation. What do you think "change" signifies here? And is "Serious. Color" a slap in the face to those among us that think that they are perhaps pushing this color-strategy a bit too much?
I think that Serous. Colour. was coined for the sake of promoting colourful cameras. If the Pentax logo was next to K5II, then perhaps Adventure. Unleashed. could come in place. I don't know, just writing form the top of my head.
I don't take those one liners below too seriously in this particular case.

QuoteQuote:
Ok. Apart from being personally invested in this - it is in my interest to know if the company is heading in a direction that supports my preferences, to be honest they haven't done that lately - this Pentax/Ricoh is actually a damned interesting business case.
I'm interested too and I guarantee you that, Ricoh and Pentax, so far, they are a weird bunch. If one knew all the internal details, there could be one helluva book.
08-02-2013, 04:35 PM   #71
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Well I Imagine I will Change soon.
08-02-2013, 05:25 PM   #72
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It's a complex. The way the logo and messaging is structured is clearly mirrored from an industry's new role model for Ricoh.





As said above, it's about fight to enter the 800 lb gorilla club, which takes only 3 to 4 members at a time. Sony now has Olympus licking their feet, Ricoh has Pentax. When loud roars break the silence of the night and in widely open mouths white fangs reflect the moonlight, nervous, hairy feet will start stomping everything below their waist.
08-02-2013, 05:41 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by VisualDarkness Quote
I would say that wrong info, confusing layout and badly updated info/news is more a rule than an exception for global companies. If you want to find stuff, search on forums or similar because usually even the search engine is broken. I think one main problem is that the website departments are a long long way from the guys in charge in the organization map, they are just something "you need to have" not something you actually want to deal with.

Check out Samsung, they actually know way less than Pentax/Ricoh when it comes to what they are selling and finding the correct things in the support section is hard/dead links.
You are right, bad websites seem to be the norm, but there seems to be a lot of panic here over an old part of a website. Try to find something over at Microsoft.com. I have been the webmaster for my company's website. Everything is gung ho while it's being built. Then once it's got a little maturity upper management doesn't understand that it has to be continually maintained an updated. Or in some case a key upper management person that sees the value leaves. A lot of industries are cutting costs and web development just isn't important to some of the management types that don't get it, usually because they don't understand how it affects the bottom line. The companies that really get it are the large on-line retailers, their sites rarely have these kind problems.

QuoteOriginally posted by H. Sapiens Quote
At least we get one more slogan now: "imagine. change" to complement "Serious. Color." I don't think any of those slogan will make it to any anthology of the 100 most brilliant slogans in modern business, but at least they are open for interpretation. What do you think "change" signifies here? And is "Serious. Color" a slap in the face to those among us that think that they are perhaps pushing this color-strategy a bit too much?
I think the color is aimed at new and especially young customers, which they need in abundance to grow. Double the amount of DSLRs and Qs out there and you double the pool of lens customers. Obviously the color thing is huge in the Japanese market too.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote

FWIW, I am an optimist. I look forward to late August. But I surely wish these tight-lipped company men would say something, anything once in a while.
I kind of think that putting out two new DSLRs, two K-mount lenses, and new Q and new Q lens in the last 2 months does say something. They may not be what all the people of this forum want but it is saying something. I don't see them putting a lot of money into new lens or a FF camera until they grow the base of users. Yes, there are a lot of vocal people here that want a full frame, but how many will actually buy it? And more importantly, is it enough to make a profit or at least not take a bath with it. I can see the posts now if a FF is introduced, there will be threads on "what it should have been" and "why I'll wait for the next generation". I think saying something with new products is much better that doing a bunch of interviews and giving vague answers like we've seen before.
08-02-2013, 06:00 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by ramseybuckeye Quote
...
I kind of think that putting out two new DSLRs, two K-mount lenses, and new Q and new Q lens in the last 2 months does say something. They may not be what all the people of this forum want but it is saying something. I don't see them putting a lot of money into new lens or a FF camera until they grow the base of users..
It is a vicious circle — one thing leads to another. If you don't have one, you will never have another.
The life is about taking risk, and you won't gain even a little if you don't risk a little.

So to grow more, they need an FF camera. They need it badly, because that is how enthusiast market works. Enthusiasts are the propelling wind of the whole camera industry. The success of Canon and Nikon lies in their willingness to take on risk, which isn't really a risk in the end — risk turns into the excitement for the customers very quickly, and customers have a thing to dream about.

And as a reward to the company, they buy the next best thing — the better APS-C if not an FF right now.

Pentax needs both — better APS-Cs than K50, and they need FF. At least two more APS-Cs and one FF. Only then Pentax talks business, only then enthusiasts turn the wind in the direction of Pentax.
08-02-2013, 07:13 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by ramseybuckeye Quote
I kind of think that putting out two new DSLRs, two K-mount lenses, and new Q and new Q lens in the last 2 months does say something.
Implied in my "waiting" for the end of the month - and I am an optimist. Unfortunately all the action aside from the GR is at the entry and mid-range end. I regularly write Ricoh is building a base and their business plan is measured in years, not months or even quarters, and that James Malcolm said good things are coming but counseled patience.

But as when one starts to imagine sounds and sights when in the depths of a cave even I lose patience. The Ricoh logo supplanting Pentax on Facebook and the .jp website is clench-inducing.

As is the none-too-subtle admonition to . change
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