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08-02-2013, 10:42 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Implied in my "waiting" for the end of the month - and I am an optimist. Unfortunately all the action aside from the GR is at the entry and mid-range end. I regularly write Ricoh is building a base and their business plan is measured in years, not months or even quarters, and that James Malcolm said good things are coming but counseled patience.
I think we did forget the other high end entry this year, the DA560, well, it's at least high priced. I agree with you that they have a plan, but we don't know what it is, and many people here won't like it because it's not their exact wishes. Sometimes I think Pentax nurtures a culture of mystery and they enjoy doing so.

08-03-2013, 01:33 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
It's a complex. The way the logo and messaging is structured is clearly mirrored from an industry's new role model for Ricoh.
I don't know, but it could just as easily be the other way round. The Ricoh slogan is at the core of their business advertising and has been for a while. They're clearly moving towards a new identity for Ricoh cameras (some of which, at the moment anyway, are called Pentax) but they are not all the way there yet by any means. Having thought the company's legal name change was just that, I'm beginning to think again. If the Pentax brand was going to disappear, or start doing so anyway, Ricoh are certainly moving in the right direction for it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
As said above, it's about fight to enter the 800 lb gorilla club, which takes only 3 to 4 members at a time. Sony now has Olympus licking their feet, Ricoh has Pentax. When loud roars break the silence of the night and in widely open mouths white fangs reflect the moonlight, nervous, hairy feet will start stomping everything below their waist.
The problem with roaring in the night is that while it may come from a large gorilla, you can never be quite sure. Funny things happen to the senses at night. Your senses may mislead you and what you're really hearing are the cries of a half-starved marmoset. Those fangs could be a moonlit banana. i refer to Sony of course. Anyway, we'll see.

Last edited by mecrox; 08-03-2013 at 01:41 AM.
08-03-2013, 01:33 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
FWIW, I am an optimist. I look forward to late August. But I surely wish these tight-lipped company men would say something, anything once in a while.
You should extend that waiting for a little bit after the end of August.
Unless you want a FF, and you want it now. I really don't think we'll see one this year (but, they're working on one - maybe next year?)

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
It's a complex. The way the logo and messaging is structured is clearly mirrored from an industry's new role model for Ricoh.
Oh, come on... Sony's "make.believe" is pretty new as well, and they hadn't invented the corporate slogans.
08-03-2013, 01:40 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You should extend that waiting for a little bit after the end of August.
Unless you want a FF, and you want it now. I really don't think we'll see one this year (but, they're working on one - maybe next year?)


Oh, come on... Sony's "make.believe" is pretty new as well, and they hadn't invented the corporate slogans.
No they haven't invented them. But it's a fad among competitive Japanese — that's the point.
Apple, for example, does not need any, because Apple integrates their values already inside every design of theirs.
They don't need to remind themselves, or explain who they are.

08-03-2013, 01:46 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Both links go to www.Pentax.com. In the USA, at least, the image branding is still "Pentax. A Ricoh Company" Of course that could be another example of Pentax USA being late updating thier website - but then it could be intentional, that PENTAX as a brand name is more important in the USA than in Japan, where Ricoh is the more powerful name.

In any case, the white K-50 featured on the Home Screen clearly has PENTAX in large black letters across the flash hump. I bet the camera has Pentax Digital Camera manufactured by Ricoh Imaging Corp, Ltd. printed on the bottom, too.

What's the issue?

P.S. My company, the second largest globally in our business (but owned by the LARGEST conglomerate in the overall broad industry) was acquired by the 7th largest company in our business (which was owned by the 4th largest conglomerate in the overall broad industry).

For some time our public name was (Acquiring Co. Name Acquired CO.Name). In March it changed to Acquiring Company Name. No references to my old company anywhere. Just never existed. Down the memory hole.

Sometimes the brand name that WE think is so important has negative associations that we overlook. Is it possible that people associate Pentax with old men who shoot film? With high school students who shoot brassy K1000's? With the totally failed sales / service model in USA? With Hoya Dealer Agreement policies that no amount of pleading sales calls will ever smooth over? (that one is real). With failed SDM motors? With Thom Hogan articles? With, "Excellent, but . . . " reviews? With quirky cameras for enthusiasts but not for consumers? With quirky cameras for entusiasts but not for professionals? With quirky cameras for APSc enthusiasts who have sweet pancakes and mountains of old K-mount lenses, but Pentax doesn't have any new FF glass?

Is it possible that Ricoh became the 267th largest company on Earth buying good companies with failed brands and applying the Ricoh name to them? If so why would they not do that in cameras? Is it possible the brand is already more damaged than we are willing to admit and Ricoh is being especially expedient - in order to preserve the patents and techology - to SAVE the K-mount?

I don't know the answer in digital imaging. But in my business, all of our systems and products and processes have replaced all of their systems and products and processes, even though all of their managers have replaced all but one of our managers. The other guys - the BUYER'S employees - have had to learn new systems and change all their business models. I just keep plugging along.

It has all happened to me before - in 31 years in this business I've had 16 business cards, but I've never changed my telephone number. And last week they gave me another new box of 500 of their business cards - and asked me to hand them my box of my business cards so they could be destroyed.

I really don't know. I really, truly don't know anything. I'm just thinking out loud here - but I've lived through this so many times that I know this. Even truly boneheaded, 30-year-old self-absorbed B-School jerks don't throw away good brands. They just don't do it.

And GOOD managers REALLY WORK to rescue good brands.

So think before you post - there might be more to this than you know.
So as long as they keep pasting PENTAX on the cameras you're happy? And how long will they keep doing that, do you think?

Ricoh threw away brands like Rex Rotary, Gestetner, Infoprint, Ikon, Heidelberg, Infotec, etc. All one or two years after the aqcuirement. Why wouldn't they do the same to Pentax?

Everybody kept pointing out, that there is no difference between Hoya owning Pentax and Ricoh owning Pentax. But there is a giant different. Ricoh has removed the Pentax site completely. Pentax is no longer an entity now.
08-03-2013, 01:52 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
No they haven't invented them. But it's a fad among competitive Japanese — that's the point.
Apple, for example, does not need any, because Apple integrates their values already inside every design of theirs.
They don't need to remind themselves, or explain who they are.
Apple does not need slogans? How about "Byte into an Apple", or "Think different." (this one a direct reference to IBM's "Think")? How about "Welcome, IBM. Seriously."? How about "Hello. Again."?
I would be surprised if another company had more slogans than Apple.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
So as long as they keep pasting PENTAX on the cameras you're happy? And how long will they keep doing that, do you think?

Ricoh threw away brands like Rex Rotary, Gestetner, Infoprint, Ikon, Heidelberg, Infotec, etc. All one or two years after the aqcuirement. Why wouldn't they do the same to Pentax?

Everybody kept pointing out, that there is no difference between Hoya owning Pentax and Ricoh owning Pentax. But there is a giant different. Ricoh has removed the Pentax site completely. Pentax is no longer an entity now.
I would be reasonably happy as long as they will keep making Pentax cameras (and I'm not talking only about the brand).

Indeed, there are differences between Hoya and Ricoh. Hostile takeover vs. buying a camera division which was for sale; wanting to get rid of Pentax Imaging vs. wanting to get Pentax Imaging.
Pentax the company was dead from 2007; it was Hoya and Sparx who killed it.

Last edited by Kunzite; 08-03-2013 at 02:09 AM.
08-03-2013, 02:17 AM   #82
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I wasn't even aware that Sony has the same logo - except that "make. believe" is clearly a more clever play on words than Ricoh's. First I thought, Ricoh! How lame it that! It is one thing being frugal but ripping off your nearest competitors logo in order to save the yens hiring a PR consultant is pushing it. Then it hit me: This is a subtle, extra textual hint to the fact that Ricoh is an old copier firm. We know, you know
08-03-2013, 02:52 AM   #83
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Evil Ricoh

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Last edited by beholder3; 08-11-2013 at 07:40 AM. Reason: [deleted]
08-03-2013, 02:52 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Apple does not need slogans? How about "Byte into an Apple", or "Think different." (this one a direct reference to IBM's "Think")? How about "Welcome, IBM. Seriously."? How about "Hello. Again."?
I would be surprised if another company had more slogans than Apple.

I would be reasonably happy as long as they will keep making Pentax cameras (and I'm not talking only about the brand).

Indeed, there are differences between Hoya and Ricoh. Hostile takeover vs. buying a camera division which was for sale; wanting to get rid of Pentax Imaging vs. wanting to get Pentax Imaging.
Pentax the company was dead from 2007; it was Hoya and Sparx who killed it.
Those were marketing campaigns. The difference is quite substantial, because Sony and Ricoh don't have an easily recognisable pictogram as a logotype. Sony writes "Sony" in text, but Apple does not need to. Apple can put an oneliner joke next to pictogram, but that doesn't mean it's a "slogan" or "tagline''.
Very few human endeavours have managed to succeed in such an extent, with Apple bordering with religious symbols.

Re Hoya and Sparx ... well, what does't kill you, it makes you stronger. They say so, but let's see how it works in case of RiIcoh; are they a real friend and helping hand, or else.
08-03-2013, 03:21 AM   #85
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Some - e.g. the first two I mentioned - are company slogans, like "make.believe" or "Intel inside"; and there isn't anything wrong with having a text as your company logo.
Apple managed it through sustained marketing campaigns. You're right, they can do it because it's a religion; Ricoh isn't, and neither is Sony.
But I wouldn't want Pentax cameras to become inexpensive things, made in China by the lowest bidder, with only a nice interface to talk about and noisy marketing. I wouldn't want to be able to see my images only through a vendor specified interface. I wouldn't want dumbed down products, which becomes useless if you ever try to use them differently than how you're allowed to.
I'm glad Pentax is not Apple.

Hoya and Sparx killed them, so Nietzsche's saying doesn't apply. The effect was:
- months of scandals, both Hoya and Sparx publicly fought against Pentax. Hoya wanted to acquire the medical business, Sparx wanted money.
- a disruptive takeover process
- cost cutting, downsizing (which wasn't all bad)
- Pentax Imaging no longer being able to benefit from the medical division. They had to meet Hoya's margins requirements by themselves, without investments.
- as an effect, products like the long lens and the 1.4x RC were cancelled. FF was out of the question.
- being prepared to be sold - no DSLR was announced in 2011, nothing much in the pipeline.
By the way, looking back I now believe the JVC rumor was true - which means Hoya was trying to sell Pentax even in 2009.
08-03-2013, 05:30 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
So as long as they keep pasting PENTAX on the cameras you're happy? And how long will they keep doing that, do you think?

Ricoh threw away brands like Rex Rotary, Gestetner, Infoprint, Ikon, Heidelberg, Infotec, etc. All one or two years after the aqcuirement. Why wouldn't they do the same to Pentax?

Everybody kept pointing out, that there is no difference between Hoya owning Pentax and Ricoh owning Pentax. But there is a giant different. Ricoh has removed the Pentax site completely. Pentax is no longer an entity now.
None of those were consumer-oriented businesses where brand names count for more. Additionally, Rex Rotary and Gestetner have their websites (which reference Ricoh as you might guess) and give the impression that they operate with something of their own staff.

Clearly, Ikon was a business overlap with Ricoh's copier business (IMHO more than Pentax and Ricoh). Here's an excerpt from the Ikon.com web page which may provide some insight on how Ricoh integrates businesses:


One Brand, Infinite Potential.
In April 2012 the Ricoh and IKON brands will align and we will go to market as Ricoh moving forward. IKON Office Solutions became a Ricoh Company in 2008. Moving to a single brand marks three years of integration planning and execution, creating a strong unified organization. As part of this effort, we will be integrating our functionality with Copiers, Printers, Multifunctional Color Copiers, Color Printers, Production Printing, Management Document Services, IT Services | Ricoh USA and launching a new customer self-service site, MyRicoh.com, where customers can request and manage service requests and eventually submit meter reads, as well as order supplies. Click Here to learn more about our brand transition.
08-03-2013, 05:59 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
None of those were consumer-oriented businesses where brand names count for more. Additionally, Rex Rotary and Gestetner have their websites (which reference Ricoh as you might guess) and give the impression that they operate with something of their own staff.

Clearly, Ikon was a business overlap with Ricoh's copier business (IMHO more than Pentax and Ricoh). Here's an excerpt from the Ikon.com web page which may provide some insight on how Ricoh integrates businesses:


One Brand, Infinite Potential.
In April 2012 the Ricoh and IKON brands will align and we will go to market as Ricoh moving forward. IKON Office Solutions became a Ricoh Company in 2008. Moving to a single brand marks three years of integration planning and execution, creating a strong unified organization. As part of this effort, we will be integrating our functionality with Copiers, Printers, Multifunctional Color Copiers, Color Printers, Production Printing, Management Document Services, IT Services | Ricoh USA and launching a new customer self-service site, MyRicoh.com, where customers can request and manage service requests and eventually submit meter reads, as well as order supplies. Click Here to learn more about our brand transition.
Interesting stuff. So they had a three-year plan in this case. I guess it means that if Pentax as a brand is going to change substantially or even disappear then the public-facing part of that just started, with the website changes on 01 August, two years into the acquisition. The real meat of Ricoh's plan will start to appear this fall and in 2014, at a guess. But, as always, who knows.
08-03-2013, 06:06 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Interesting stuff. So they had a three-year plan in this case. I guess it means that if Pentax as a brand is going to change substantially or even disappear then the public-facing part of that just started, with the website changes on 01 August, two years into the acquisition. The real meat of Ricoh's plan will start to appear this fall and in 2014, at a guess. But, as always, who knows.
Quoted text above is full of rubbish.
08-03-2013, 06:24 AM - 1 Like   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Quoted text above is full of rubbish.
Lol. Uluru, old chap, it's time to sit down and slow down over a refreshing cup of tea. It's just a camera and Ricoh are just a business, though admittedly a very good one so far as most folks can tell. It's Saturday, the office is closed and the sun is shining.
08-03-2013, 06:26 AM   #90
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If I was King of the World at Ricoh I'd retain the Pentax brand for enthusiast and professional-level photography products.

We'll see what happens.
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