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08-03-2013, 09:47 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mazhe Quote
It will be a very sad day when the Pentax brand is reduced to medical hardware...
Well, that happened a long time ago: PENTAXMEDICAL

Not sure what is sad about it though?

08-03-2013, 10:38 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Prove it.
We are not going to be able to "prove" anything, so the best we can do is present a reasoned opinion.

As it happens I also really dislike the bland corporate design of Ricoh's website and the slogan. I got the same impression of blandness from the pictures I saw of their Photokina booth last year. I hope they can do something about that.

Clearly Ricoh feels there is a benefit in the end customer and other stakeholders being aware that Pentax cameras are made by Ricoh, in Japan at least. The website is now primarily branded as Ricoh and the Pentax Forum showroom in Tokyo is being renamed as Ricoh Imaging Square Shinjuku. So I think it's difficult to dismiss this as only an organisational change.

???????????Web???URL?????????RICOH IMAGING

But I can't imagine they will remove the name of Pentax from the cameras themselves, for the simple reason that it would create the potential for confusion, with customers wondering, "Will this Ricoh lens work on my Pentax camera?" So I think they will transition to a kind of sub-brand strategy, like Sony Vaio, Sony Bravia, Sony Playstation, Sony Walkman. Japanese companies love that kind of branding and customers don't find it confusing. It's more like a "demotion" of the Pentax brand, rather than elimination.

Another speculation: Perhaps the timing of this name change is significant. Products released so far look like a continuation of the Hoya/Pentax product lines to me. Could this mean that products from now on are going to be more in line with Ricoh's more ambitious vision for Pentax? It could mean exciting things are coming soon.
08-04-2013, 12:27 AM   #108
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Haven't we seen "dual branded" Pentax cameras before? Well, sort of...

How about those "Honeywell Pentax" bodies? I understand the situation was quite different with Honeywell being an importer rather than the owners like Ricoh. Maybe we'll see something like that in the worst case.
08-04-2013, 01:40 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
What Zygonix is telling you, is that we are currently seeing Pentax being dismantled with our own eyes. It's not just a claim we want to have disproven. Disprove what we are actually seeing: First they were bought out, then the usual waiting period. (No major changes or laying off of personnel for a certain period.) Then the name disappears from the internet. And the next step is obvious: the "new" Ricoh K3. Or there may be some steps in between.
Wrong, you/Zygonix still have to prove your/his claims. What he did is called shifting the burden of proof, and it's a logical fallacy.

08-04-2013, 05:42 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
But I can't imagine they will remove the name of Pentax from the cameras themselves, for the simple reason that it would create the potential for confusion, with customers wondering, "Will this Ricoh lens work on my Pentax camera?"
Maybe they don't care, Sony did that with Minolta.

Also it's a way of selling new lenses, I bet a lot of people think they can use only Sony lenses with their alpha body.
08-04-2013, 05:51 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by NickLarsson Quote
Maybe they don't care, Sony did that with Minolta.
Sony doesn't own the KonicaMinolta brand name. Ricoh does own the Pentax brand name for cameras. This is a null question now anyway since Ricoh has announced today the Pentax brand stays for everything but compacts.
08-04-2013, 06:28 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
...Ricoh has announced today the Pentax brand stays for everything but compacts.
He looks like a nice guy this Mr. Kawauchi, I trust him. I still think it leaves them with some issues, communicating a single message of brand identity. One example: searching for Pentax in FB brings up a search result that have a large Ricoh logo. I would be sorry about that if I ran their marketing campaigns. Maybe Pentax Pakistan gets more fans now?!

Replacing the logo seems to be a decision based on corporate pride and not with the customers in mind. Why should I care that Ricoh owns Pentax? Some company owns Nikon, I think. Who? I don't know and when I go to Nikons main FB it is "Nikon" everywhere. Consitency!

That said, I have travelled a lot in India and parts of SE Asia and Ricoh is a lot stronger as a brand - not associated with cameras though. If Ricoh plan to focus on these markets instead of US and and Europe I would not blame them.
08-04-2013, 07:20 AM   #113
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Nikon is owned by Nikon Corporation A major banking interest is a silent owner of a plurality of the shares. Basing your opinion of an entire corporate brand strategy upon the image link at Facebook is a bit facile.


Last edited by monochrome; 08-04-2013 at 07:45 AM.
08-04-2013, 08:10 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Wrong, you/Zygonix still have to prove your/his claims. What he did is called shifting the burden of proof, and it's a logical fallacy.
OMG you're ignorant. Nobody has to prove that Ricoh has discontinued the online Pentax address, to be replaced by Ricoh. It's a done deal.
08-04-2013, 08:12 AM   #115
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Edit: Sorry, a reply to Mono...

Oh, should have checked. I thought of the "Mitsubishi" link, but apparently they don't own Nikon.

I wouldn't say I base my opinion on an entire brand strategy on a image link, but we are given very little to work with. I still don't know their brand strategy - and since you likely read the link yourself, apparently neither does Mr. Kawauchi. I don't care if my camera carry a Ricoh or Pentax-badge, I do care if they intend to continue and improve on WR and I think it would be relevant to know if they want to go FF. I am not convinced these questions are even answered within the company.
08-04-2013, 08:34 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
OMG you're ignorant. Nobody has to prove that Ricoh has discontinued the online Pentax address, to be replaced by Ricoh. It's a done deal.
And this is an ad hominem attack, together with a nice little strawman.
08-04-2013, 09:25 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
OMG you're ignorant. Nobody has to prove that Ricoh has discontinued the online Pentax address, to be replaced by Ricoh. It's a done deal.
Type 'www.pentax.com' in your browser. It redirects to the Ricoh Imaging website. Pentax isn't gone.

Roll your mouse over the products tab on that website. What do you see pop up without clicking? Pentax plastered all over every product box.

What's the issue?

With all due respect to your entitlement to your opinion, Clavius, and to post it in every thread on the Forum, you are simply wrong this time. Ricoh has not discontinued the Pentax brnad. They have not diminished the Pentax brand. They are in fact supporting both the Ricoh and the Pentax brands by combining their marketing presences, where possible, under one common banner - RICOH. Pentax is committed to K-mount, Q and 645. End of message.

This will over time strengthen and clarify brand identity, increase consumer awareness of both brands, make final distribution easier and more profitable and allow easier access to Ricoh's corporate capital for such things as image advertising, Dealer factor product advances, Co-Op advertising, deal pricing and the like.

Ipso facto Pentax is doomed.
08-04-2013, 01:59 PM   #118
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Suspense will never - do i hope - have been stronger than nowadays.

Let's speculate for anything better soon, but time is not indefinite... i foresee a few scenarii :

1- Continous production "revamp" with eye-catching innovations / eventual visibility given to existing and potential Pentax customers / K-mount and 645 systems before end 2013
For example : APS-C high-end body with up-dated AF, 2 EV dynamics and ISOs improvements " la Fuji X-M1" ; long awaited and eye-catching FF body + lenses.
=> end of the "tears for fears", business as usual - The "best-of" case !

2- No FF nor anything serious (like high-end APS-C replacing K-5II DSLRs) announced by end of 2013 :
=> Pentax's "last" / "long-lasting" loyal customers starting to depart. Consecutive dramatic drop for bodies and second-hand lens prices. Angry running all over the pentaxian community.
=> From there, and because marketing networks is stalled, not enough new customers to sustain K-mount sales, hence Pentax's revenue.
Possible improvement if novelties appear early 2014, but probably not enough to catch up sufficient growth. Consecutive continuous market-shares depletion, until too late... the first "regression" case...

3- New K-mount APS-C or FF bodies announced and sold under the RICOH label end 2013 - early 2014
=> depending of what kind of improvements are achieved, a more or less significant part of pentax users will stay, and buy.
=> But regarding new customers, the sudden label change will not encourage boughts unless very significant innovations are achieved, giving them enough trust for the future. In any case, not much of a success because of label instability (that competitors will easily exploit...). The second "regression" case, at least for a few years. If innovation/marketing carry on progress, maybe a "not so worst case" after say 4 to 5 years.

4- Announcement of the last improbable "niche" found by classical RICOH's engineers - a new DSLM (mirrorless) with a new mount (or even a second GXR generation), after all of the competition ; and consecutively announcement of the commercial liquidation of the K-mount.
=> A majority of Pentax users then living the ship - in the very improbable situation they can get enough money from their dead-programmed system.
=> A very "confidential and geeky customership" starts to try and adopt the new system : "Ricoh as usual", keeping credit for unusual things and corresponding microscopic market shares. Pentax is dead, less than 5% of Pentax users join Ricoh's new adventure. The "worst-of" case.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 08-04-2013 at 02:13 PM.
08-04-2013, 02:22 PM   #119
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What you foresee - the doom&gloom part - is in complete contradiction to Ricoh's claims. Are you saying they're blatantly lying to us?
08-04-2013, 02:28 PM   #120
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I haven't excluded the case, indeed.
Any market evolution could be used as a new argument, whilst uncertainty and apparent improvisation already partly eroded my confidence.
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