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08-07-2013, 04:46 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
There is also one more incentive that will lure current APS-C users to FF solution: enough pixels.
That's very true and why I think a 24mp FF camera from Pentax would be a mistake. If quality 32mp APS sensors can be had soon (rumors) then perhaps 36mp is not enough either for FF...
As for lenses; the telephoto ones are not a problem; they could be just as valid for APS as for FF and the cost for larger imaging circle is negligible as long as we are not talking zooms with very long range (eg I think a 80-200/2.8 lens is more useful for APS than for FF). Its more problematic in the normal zoom rangers where lenses will be more expensive for FF and have focal lenghts ranges that not translates into popular ranges for APS.

08-07-2013, 05:16 AM   #122
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A K-01 with a FF sensor and add-on EVF would be pretty unique.
08-07-2013, 05:30 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
A K-01 with a FF sensor and add-on EVF would be pretty unique.
It would be a Sony A99 with a removable EVF. Possible, but pricey. This is the way to keep the kit small and justify development of smallish FF primes with in-body SR.

Zooms wide to 120mm are the issue in terms of cost, demand, and necessary new products. Zooms sell the system; primes are a bonus. Even Fuji realizes this with the X-series.

I wonder when someone will make an APS-C bridge camera with a non-system zoom lens. I sense that coming from Fuji, Sony, or Canon, but it would be nice to see Pentax break that ground. Not everyone wants to change lenses and there are some very good reasons not to (protect the sensor, cost). We've got APS-C compacts...
08-07-2013, 05:52 AM - 1 Like   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
A K-01 with a FF sensor and add-on EVF would be pretty unique.
Indeed. I'd love the following (and I'm sure many would love it too):

Pentax LX-D
- WiFi tethering
- HDMI output
- Mirrorbox with manual MLU
- Internal flash on a moving arm like on the Q but larger/higher (keeps the viewfinder free)
- Optical viewfinders: waistlevel annex viewfinder cover with no flash shoe (standard), normal prism viewfinder with flash shoe, high eyepoint prism finder with flash shoe
- Electronic viewfinders: Standard Definition with no flash shoe, High Definition with external viewing through WiFi and dedicated smartphone/tablet app, with flash shoe

So essentially what the LX was, but much, much more versatile. This way many people can be made happy because the camera will be VERY customizable. In the cheapest and smallest form it would be working like a K-01 with FF sensor (with the manual MLU engaged) where the back LCD acts as the viewfinder. But add a normal prism viewfinder and we have a DSLR in form and function. And there's even the option to use EVF's (to make manual focusing a dream).

Of course, this will come at a price (not only in money but also sealing, though the LX's viewfinders were sealed) but the customization possibilities surely will attract many customers.

(And maybe the above was what Kawauchi-San was referring to with regards to the technical difficulties the design team is facing...)

08-07-2013, 06:03 AM   #125
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Yes, interchangeable OVF/EVF in on my wish list too.
08-07-2013, 06:15 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Indeed. I'd love the following
Sounds too much like the kind of camera Homer Simpson would design.
Every feature anyone could ever want, but unmarketably complex and peculiar.
08-07-2013, 06:15 AM   #127
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You know guys... we should put our resources together and build our own PentaxForums camera .

I mean if we all donate... and with all the people that have so much technical and business knowledge... I am sure we can come up with something brilliant
08-07-2013, 06:20 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Sounds too much like the kind of camera Homer Simpson would design.
Every feature anyone could ever want, but unmarketably complex and peculiar.
A true SYSTEM camera is unmarketable? I don't think the Nikon F and Canon F1's were unmarketable in their time. But the times have changed indeed.

08-07-2013, 06:24 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
Yes, interchangeable OVF/EVF in on my wish list too.
I presume you don't need autofocus?

Autofocus eliminated the interchangeable VF systems because focusing overlays (little red lights) require a split in the light path and have to be rigidly located on a traditional SLR underneath the prism. Some models used different arrangements, like the Olympus E-300:

Olympus E-300 EVOLT Review: Digital Photography Review

That's why modular systems went away in the age of AF.

And an EVF option on a mirror system is pointless when the raison d'etre of an EVF is to NOT have a mirror. What 's the point of such a module?

There is no need for a WLF when you can articulate an LCD. This is an electronic solution far superior to the old analog one (on 135...different issue for 6x6).

It would be much, much cheaper to simply make 2 models. A traditional DSLR and a K-01 FF with EVF.
08-07-2013, 06:38 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Indeed. I'd love the following (and I'm sure many would love it too):

Pentax LX-D
- WiFi tethering
- HDMI output
- Mirrorbox with manual MLU
- Internal flash on a moving arm like on the Q but larger/higher (keeps the viewfinder free)
- Optical viewfinders: waistlevel annex viewfinder cover with no flash shoe (standard), normal prism viewfinder with flash shoe, high eyepoint prism finder with flash shoe
- Electronic viewfinders: Standard Definition with no flash shoe, High Definition with external viewing through WiFi and dedicated smartphone/tablet app, with flash shoe

So essentially what the LX was, but much, much more versatile. This way many people can be made happy because the camera will be VERY customizable. In the cheapest and smallest form it would be working like a K-01 with FF sensor (with the manual MLU engaged) where the back LCD acts as the viewfinder. But add a normal prism viewfinder and we have a DSLR in form and function. And there's even the option to use EVF's (to make manual focusing a dream).

Of course, this will come at a price (not only in money but also sealing, though the LX's viewfinders were sealed) but the customization possibilities surely will attract many customers.

(And maybe the above was what Kawauchi-San was referring to with regards to the technical difficulties the design team is facing...)
This kind of modularity is the only thing I can think of that would make a full frame DSLR attractive above competing systems, although the most meaningful user modification would be a way for the user to slide in a replacement/alternative sensor. That would be pretty revolutionary. It's quite a lot to hope for, but Ricoh has shown a willingness to try radical ideas in the GXR.

I still think a more likely and practical system would be a mirrorless full frame. That would enable the camera to be smaller, simpler and make the switch less painful for anyone coming from another full frame system because they could bring their lenses with them. The first one needs to be a relatively large body with a couple of high quality 2.8 zooms and a K-mount AF adapter. Smaller cameras could come later when more compact lenses are introduced.
08-07-2013, 06:38 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I presume you don't need autofocus?

Autofocus eliminated the interchangeable VF systems because focusing overlays (little red lights) require a split in the light path and have to be rigidly located on a traditional SLR underneath the prism.
Of course I want AF. I don't buy your explaination how the "red dots" would discard the interchangeble VF concept. Have the "dots" in the removable module or fixed in the house itself. Solved.
08-07-2013, 06:44 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I presume you don't need autofocus?
The viewfinder has nothing to do with the PDAF system which is located in the bottom of the mirror box (I see you have edited your reply with regards to that).

QuoteQuote:
Autofocus eliminated the interchangeable VF systems because focusing overlays (little red lights) require a split in the light path and have to be rigidly located on a traditional SLR underneath the prism.
I'm sure I have seen patents describing combinations of a prism with a LCD overlay (no red lights needed). So things can be made simpler.

QuoteQuote:
There is no need for a WLF when you can articulate an LCD. This is an electronic solution far superior to the old analog one (on 135...different issue for 6x6).
I'd rather not have an articulating LCD. Please give me a nice Android app which shows the viewfinder screen on my tablet, thank you

QuoteQuote:
It would be much, much cheaper to simply make 2 models. A traditional DSLR and a K-01 FF with EVF.
True but too bad about the limitations. A K-01 can never be a traditional DSLR and vice versa. Anyway if I were the head of design I'd ditch the mirror box completely. Design a superb EVF (system!) and the mirror box is quickly forgotten (in most, but not all, situations).
08-07-2013, 07:09 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
Of course I want AF. I don't buy your explaination how the "red dots" would discard the interchangeble VF concept. Have the "dots" in the removable module or fixed in the house itself. Solved.
Won't work. The overlays are like screens and in advanced AF systems are paired with the AF module below the beam splitter in the mirror assembly. They sit right above the mirror and have to be close to that assembly or they require an optical assist higher up the path, which is no feasible in current form factors for prisms. That's how you get in a Canon a 45 point overlay filling the OVF identical to what is seen by the AF system. Your other option is to side mirror to get the space without using an ocular such as what Olympus did (which is why Olympus did it because a 4/3 VF is so constricted as is).

So, yes, the VF has a lot to do with the AF system. That feedback loop is precisely why AF systems replaced modular prisms and VF's. We no longer have lenses designed or manufactured requiring modular screens. AF eliminated 99% of the market for that.

Also, modular system are extremely difficult to weather seal and that means another point of entry for dust in the worst possible place...from above.

If you go modular you got EVF, not OVF because then you're only transmitting an electrical signal and redirecting an optical path.

I am sure you could overlay a prism with an LCD but I suspect it is not done because it would like an SLT with a substantial loss of brightness. OVF is largely about as pure an optical path as you can get. Once you diminish that, you're Sony with an m43 OVF

And we don't want that..
08-07-2013, 07:28 AM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Won't work. The overlays are like screens and in advanced AF systems are paired with the AF module below the beam splitter in the mirror assembly. They sit right above the mirror and have to be close to that assembly or they require an optical assist higher up the path, which is no feasible in current form factors for prisms. That's how you get in a Canon a 45 point overlay filling the OVF identical to what is seen by the AF system. Your other option is to side mirror to get the space without using an ocular such as what Olympus did (which is why Olympus did it because a 4/3 VF is so constricted as is).
If located at "AF points display" here (third picture): Pentax K-30 vs K-5 IIs Cross Sections - Photokina 2012 - PentaxForums.com ?
If so, it is located within the interchangeble part as I see the concept.
08-07-2013, 08:37 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
If located at "AF points display" here (third picture): Pentax K-30 vs K-5 IIs Cross Sections - Photokina 2012 - PentaxForums.com ?
If so, it is located within the interchangeble part as I see the concept.
You're missing the concept then.

Take a pro-level AF system with 41+ cross-type sensors.

The overlay needs to be precisely aligned every time with the AF system..tight, tight, tight. Even a small mis-alignment means that you may be off by a point in either direction or even less across the few mm's you have to work with, even on a larger FF frame. You cannot have multiple, selectable AF points in such close proximity to each for pro-level focusing with their being almost no tolerance. That focusing aid is a precision instrument.

With MF, modular systems could allow for some tolerance the error was intrinsically corrected by the manual process of focusing. There were no focus points so closely arrayed and automated.

Likely the reason why Pentax (in all its penny pinching, stubborn foolishness) does not include focus point confirmation in the K-x and K-500 has nothing to do with the cost of the module, a few bucks. It likely has to do with the testing needed to precisely tune each unit after manufacture.

These cameras are all hand-assembled so there is variance. One less testing system saves maybe up to $20/unit (guesswork, but each unit probably needs to be tested after that assembly and then swung back into assembly or looped back to re-align, then test again).

So AF effectively does away with the need for modular, optical focusing systems. Screens are more likely to be used for gridline framing than focus precision. The MF segment is a tiny, tiny niche of the whole market so cannot drive sales. The whole idea has an extreme cost and pretty much no market and is rife with engineering difficulties. AF killed modular system cameras.
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