[6BQ5]

.Pentax could do it, but they'd bleed money unless they sold bucketloads of lenses alongside. Canon and Nikon have about 40+ FF lenses each so the straddle the market with variety and price points. HOw is Pentax with a single FF body going to suddenly put out the necessary 8 lenses at start and up to 15 with 24 months?

They're not starting with nothing. Like Nikon and others they have made FF lenses in the past. They even have their current FA series which is a start. I imagine that there would need to be some optimization but I think they are further ahead than some would give them credit for.

[Uluru]

..
Pentax could do it, but they'd bleed money unless they sold bucketloads of lenses alongside. Canon and Nikon have about 40+ FF lenses each so the straddle the market with variety and price points...

Not as bad start at all:

If a camera has a 135 format sensor, but:

• crops automatically to APS-C,
• and to 20 mm x 30 mm size picture as some suggest,
• adding extra FA lenses that were available for the Japanese market into the basket,
• a good and distinctive body design,

and Pentax starts with an appealing FF system. It has a headstart like no other system introduced in the last 5 years.

There is also one more incentive that will lure current APS-C users to FF solution: enough pixels.

If the FF comes with a 36MP FF sensor, for example, DA lenses will at least deliver 16MP APS-C image circle — which is the total size of today's K5II sensor. Some DA lenses may even have a larger than APS-C circle (and in fact they do), then 20mmx30mm circle delivers even more, 20+MP on that same camera.

An FF camera suddenly has a lot of appeal even to current Pentax APS-C users. They will, of course, welcome FA lens additions in the future, but even for start, they have much more than what they have right now — even with DA lenses, because every single DA lens may give same or even more performance on an FF sensor.

I personally cannot see any possible reason that a Pentax FF camera can or would have a bad life at all.

[Aristophanes]

Not as bad start at all:

If a camera has a 135 format sensor, but:

• crops automatically to APS-C,
• and to 20 mm x 30 mm size picture as some suggest,
• adding extra FA lenses that were available for the Japanese market into the basket,
• a good and distinctive body design,

and Pentax starts with an appealing FF system. It has a headstart like no other system introduced in the last 5 years.

There is also one more incentive that will lure current APS-C users to FF solution: enough pixels.

If the FF comes with a 36MP FF sensor, for example, DA lenses will at least deliver 16MP APS-C image circle — which is the total size of today's K5II sensor. Some DA lenses may even have a larger than APS-C circle (and in fact they do), then 20mmx30mm circle delivers even more, 20+MP on that same camera.

An FF camera suddenly has a lot of appeal even to current Pentax APS-C users. They will, of course, welcome FA lens additions in the future, but even for start, they have much more than what they have right now — even with DA lenses, because every single DA lens may give same or even more performance on an FF sensor.

I personally cannot see any possible reason that a Pentax FF camera can or would have a bad life at all.

Cropping from FF because you have an APS sensor is a kludge that sells zero glass and makes no on happy.

Few of the current DA lenses are optimized for a camera system where the body will be close to $2,000.

The DSLR form factor can only change so much. A Pentax FF will come in somewhere in size near a D600.

Some of the current DA lenses may be FF capable, but we cannot know for sure how good compared to the competition. They have to be FF competitive with Canikon or the system will not sell. Lesser glass or compromises sells Canikon, not Pentax.

Acts of desperation are duly noted by the market.

[Aristophanes]

They're not starting with nothing. Like Nikon and others they have made FF lenses in the past. They even have their current FA series which is a start. I imagine that there would need to be some optimization but I think they are further ahead than some would give them credit for.

The FA Limiteds need revamping for digital. That's costly.

It's the zooms where the problem lies. You need the equivalent of Canon L-glass plus f/2.8 to sell FF. It's very difficult to straddle the market with what Pentax has now.

And in cannibalizing a huge chunk of their top-end APS customers, they'd still need to keep those DA lenses going for that market as well, likely at lower price points.

So to get FF out the door they'd have to take a margin hit on APS from body to glass.

It's an enormous risk for the company and for K-mount. It's a project that cannot fail, yet there is almost no room to innovate within the traditional SLR form factor.

[IchabodCrane]

They're not starting with nothing. Like Nikon and others they have made FF lenses in the past. They even have their current FA series which is a start. I imagine that there would need to be some optimization but I think they are further ahead than some would give them credit for.

According to a friend with a 1D, these are the kinds of lenses people with that type of camera are interested in:

Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : EF 400mm f/2.8L IS USM

Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : EF 500mm f/4L IS II USM

[Uluru]

Ok, this is the table I've constructed to have a better picture about what a possible FF and enough resolution may bring forth.



I think we can almost say that an FF camera can substitute an APS-C for almost all uses, and all current lenses. Exact features will determine is that the fact, like, FPS rate, overall size, etc. But from the purely picture making perspective, there we are.

Such an FF opens up a lucrative possibility for current Pentax users to strongly think about buying an FF, and skipping the APS-C altogether.

[derekkite]

It is if you keep the K-mount.

The DSLR is a mature technology. The amount of innovation is limited and marginal, now mostly driven by processing and algorithms.

If I were Ricoh, I would build something very good, FF and high end aps-c, and put a processing engine that is powerful enough to handle a couple very serious processing upgrades. Change the industry, make your bodies a platform that improves. Even specialized firmware, ie. no internal processing just raw speed, etc. Provide an api and methods to build your own, to extend specific features for specific niches such as astro. An API for tethering and remote transfer and control.

3/4 of the K5 stuff that I have to scroll through I never use. I would love to turn off some of the buttons on the back that I hit by mistake with my big thumb. These things are computers now, they get the idea of individualized with their color offerings and the special button stuff that you can get done. Why not go even further?

[twitch]

Hopefully "Pentax is here to stay" is not a case of "The coach has the full support of the board" because we all know how that ends for the coach.

[Ishpuini]

Ok, this is the table I've constructed to have a better picture about what a possible FF and enough resolution may bring forth.



I think we can almost say that an FF camera can substitute an APS-C for almost all uses, and all current lenses. Exact features will determine is that the fact, like, FPS rate, overall size, etc. But from the purely picture making perspective, there we are.

Such an FF opens up a lucrative possibility for current Pentax users to strongly think about buying an FF, and skipping the APS-C altogether.

All I can think of is how many threads will emerge from people who don't understand which FoV is offered by which lens on which camera in which mode. Judging from the difficulty many have to grasp the concept, it seems hard enough explaining to people that 50mm remains 50mm regardless of the camera the lens was originally made for (135film or APS-C). If we also have to take into account the sensor area covered by the image circle, that will only add to the confusion...

Wim

[Mehlsack]

Well

In my humble opinion it would be far more usefull to pentax to officially start at FF-Lens nomenclature like DFA or what ever and simply start pushing out lenses there.

This would be by far be more encouraging that pentax is indeed working on an FF than just some lame statement.
In Addition to that, pentax would have some nice high performance lenses even if the miracle FF never shows up ( like the famous TC)

[Uluru]

All I can think of is how many threads will emerge from people who don't understand which FoV is offered by which lens on which camera in which mode. Judging from the difficulty many have to grasp the concept, it seems hard enough explaining to people that 50mm remains 50mm regardless of the camera the lens was originally made for (135film or APS-C). If we also have to take into account the sensor area covered by the image circle, that will only add to the confusion...

Wim

Hmm, when talking about that, I think Pentax can help a lot.
On such a camera, software can inform user about the outcome of the lens used. Say, someone mounts a DA15 on a camera; camera says "You have mounted DA15 lens; on this camera you can take a picture of X megapixels at angle of view Y ". Etc. ...

[Supernaut]

I even cant believe that developing a FF-DSLR is SOO complex that you need MORE then 1 1/2 years ( not to mention a very likely delay and that they startet some time ago)

While I agree to some extent, I'm thinking a FF line may need a leap in technology on all fronts if Ricoh is serious. This means new AF (not putting in the old aps-c AF like Nikon did on D600), a starting set of FF lenses (maybe with more high end ring motors), etc. This is more than the previous incremental changes and is more demanding. Especially if you have a small R&D group that is just enough for those small increments.

[mecrox]

Uh-oh, another outbreak of "FF psychosis". Oldies yearning for the good old days, those with a mountain of legacy glass in grandpappy's cupboard - off to the glue factory with you.

Pentax needs to complete a really solid, commercial offering based on what they already do. It's the only way they can find a future for themselves and establish any kind of credibility with the retail trade.

Ricoh is the brand far better placed to produce surprises and mould-breakers. They don't have legacy baggage to haul around and they are not in the fiercely competitive DSLR arena where both demand and prices are falling.

[Mehlsack]

of course it is demanding, i will not doubt that.

I just want to point out that, without any "near" revamps and improvments of lenses, or the release of new FF labeled and FF capable lenses there is just no use in saying "we will have a FF in 2015".

So instead of saying "there will be a FF in 2015"

Just start pumping out lenses...

We are the "pentaxforums" if pentax releases a FF-capable lens, we WILL know and we will test it on "oldschool" analog and we will start rumouring about the FF-DSLR which might see the light of day, at some point...

[Uluru]

A very reliable source of information re Pentax said: look for September 5th press conference organised by Ricoh Imaging.
That's Thursday, FYI..