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09-01-2013, 12:15 PM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Uhm, that was a bit bold, I'd say.
It may have been bold, it also is quite stupid given his former post but what do I know ?

09-01-2013, 12:29 PM   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
It may have been bold, it also is quite stupid given his former post but what do I know ?
These last few weeks I've been rather nonplussed by the vitriol emanating from members who have 25 or 50 or maybe 200 posts. I'm not questioning their right to have nor to express an opinion based on frequency of posting - many of them know a lot more about photography than, say, I do - but I do wonder about the tone and the lack of willingness to discuss. It simply appears the most logical explanation is the emergence of sleepers - here to sow discord just when Pentax is getting its act together.

We may not really like the new direction that much, but the possibility exists that it is a solid, real, permanent change that will eventually lead to a stronger Pentax (that is my belief). Were I a competitor I wouldn't want my competition's customers and supporters to be encouraged by Ricoh.

Such a conspiracy is beyond my capacity to really believe, but I have no other explanation.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-01-2013 at 12:57 PM.
09-01-2013, 12:35 PM - 2 Likes   #213
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I think Ricoh is going to do OK. It isn't easy to blend two different cultures together in a short amount of time, i.e. Ricoh photography and Pentax photography, but there are some positive signs.

For example, no work on the flash system was done under Hoya despite numerous suggestions from this forum. But under Ricoh, we now have water resistant flashes that were requested on this forum. And we also have a new version of the limited lenses with improved coatings. If a company were going to close down the Pentax line - you would certainly not put any money into either of these efforts.

As to recent complaints over the cost of new lenses. Well, Pentax can't operate as a charity - staff need to get paid or they will leave :-( They will likely follow the Nikon lead - i.e. charge a lot for lenses, and when they don't move - have a sale. If one doesn't like the list price, then wait for sales. It takes money to do the engineering and manufacturing preps for new equipment - that money has to come from somewhere. There will always be ups and downs on prices.
09-01-2013, 02:18 PM   #214
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For all the bashing that Ricoh has been taking from us here in the forums I think Ricoh is doing OK. We haven't seen any cancelations in the product line up except for obsoleting "old" products with "new". We've seen "new" lenses and flashes which is better than nothing coming out. The Q7 is the next big thing coming up for Pentax. I'm curious to see how they will be doing at around Christmas time when people do their holiday shopping.

I've noticed that Ricoh is also slowly massaging their main website too. Slow incremental and careful changes for the good which stick are better than splashing out random crap and seeing what works and what doesn't.

09-01-2013, 03:21 PM   #215
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It's interesting that some of you people are complaining about sowing discord and accusing people of stupidity.

I had made a very simple observation, without any vitriol whatever, and one I will repeat: for all its storied history, Pentax has not been a driving force in photography or technology for many years, and certainly not since Hoya destroyed their corporate infrastructure after taking over.

This is not to say that the equipment is not superb. It may be, or it may not be; but whichever it is, it is in no way at the forefront of either technology or consumer (pro, amateur, whatever -- they all buy, that's the point) buzz.

And at a time when Ricoh is systematically discounting the brand it bought. Good grief, removing a website domain is HUGE, and pretending otherwise is silly. Such defensiveness. Such lecturing about how anyone who says anything should just shut up and take photographs.

Unheroic, all of it.

Last edited by asaru; 09-01-2013 at 03:31 PM.
09-01-2013, 04:01 PM   #216
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Most of my gear is from the 70's too - not because I think it is so wonderful but because I like the brass and aluminum and glass; the lubrication and the ability to recondition things and keep using them rather than throwing them away. Had I started with Nikon - had my grandmother given me a Nikon camera instead of a KX and K50/1.4 for college graduation I likely wouldn't be here.

Pentax hasn't really been a driving force in camera technology since the Spotmatic. Sure - certainly Pentax released a brilliant lens or individual camera - even systems like LX and 6x7 - from time to time. But they rarely if ever had a followup.

Beginning about 1970 Nikon, then Canon, Olympus and Minolta each shifted the paradigm - and each time the paradigm shifted and Pentax reacted they moved a bit farther from the lead. By the time of Hoya Pentax was a mere shell of its former glorious brand.

I know lots of people will offer examples of why I am wrong and how Pentax was great until (fill in your date) but the truth is, were it not for the efforts of a few members of PDML Pentax would have been gone in 2001.

I believe Ricoh has a long term plan to eventually shift some of the photo technology paradigm, but looking backward to the glory days, hoping for a magical return to 1968 or millions of K1000's hanging from hippie straps - well that just isn't coming.

OTOH, berating members with invective and demeaning language isn't helping either. Not that you did that but these new product threads sure are full of it.
09-01-2013, 05:55 PM - 2 Likes   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
These last few weeks I've been rather nonplussed by the vitriol emanating from members who have 25 or 50 or maybe 200 posts....
Such a conspiracy is beyond my capacity to really believe, but I have no other explanation.
There is no conspiracy. But we should be fair and maybe admit that Pentax Ricoh haven't done anything that others haven't done already, and perhaps much better.

Not only that, even in the lens arena, many manufacturers have borrowed a page from the Pentax book — from the age when Pentax was still making its original optics, like the DA limited range — and during the time when Pentax was actively sleeping, the gap has narrowed. One can seriously ask: what's the Pentax advantage now 4 years after the last Limited lens was introduced? Then and there Pentax has stopped investing into its APS-C philosophy instead in making it even stronger. There's hardly any advantage left. Not even to mention an endless FF saga — it's a large and surreal story in itself.

The time of inactivity has been too long I suppose. It does cost Pentax lots of anger and frustration from its fans, especially when nothing really new, really outstanding was announced in the last 3 years. Not a single DA limited, despite big gaps between them. Just a rehash, after rehash, dipped in this or that colour, and you bet, people do expect miracles and something more than that — whether that is unfounded or not. I personally like colourful cameras, but that is beside the point — everyone knows that it is the same camera from yesterday, just one model but with or without seals, with or without calibrated OVF. A minimum of effort.

I think many will be disappointed with whatever comes in in a few days, especially if the camera is a rehash of the K5, and just one camera and nothing else beside it (or even a new 645D, which will only confirm a wide price gap in the total Pentax lineup which hasn't been remedied in 3+ years).

The picture of people's expectations is simply too big. Can we blame them?

I think Ricoh did not manage brand expectations quite well, despite presumably good intentions, and I think they could have done it better. Sudden company change name, endless rehashes, not so stellar image of its US outlet, etc. well, no, it wasn't the best way to manage good expectations and perceptions. Therefore, I expect even worse comments plaguing this forum from September 5th. You can try to console them, give an explanation, but many won't hear about excuses.

But please don't suppose all such people are trolls. They have a right to be disappointed and it doesn't mean that seemingly rational explanations of yours or mine are any less works of fiction than big expectations; they are both based on our beliefs and projections, because we are all given zero facts.

In any case, we're like a bottle of champagne, well shaken and ready to explode.

Last edited by Uluru; 09-01-2013 at 10:39 PM.
09-02-2013, 03:53 AM   #218
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Maybe something big will turn up, we've been hearing about full frame for ages, and nothing has arrived. Bar making a 24mp K5III with a few bits (ie more AF points) I'm not sure what else to expect.

09-02-2013, 05:08 AM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
In any case, we're like a bottle of champagne, well shaken and ready to explode.
Champagne is used for celebrating things...
09-02-2013, 05:30 AM - 1 Like   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
There is no conspiracy. But we should be fair and maybe admit that Pentax Ricoh haven't done anything that others haven't done already, and perhaps much better.

Not only that, even in the lens arena, many manufacturers have borrowed a page from the Pentax book — from the age when Pentax was still making its original optics, like the DA limited range — and during the time when Pentax was actively sleeping, the gap has narrowed. One can seriously ask: what's the Pentax advantage now 4 years after the last Limited lens was introduced? Then and there Pentax has stopped investing into its APS-C philosophy instead in making it even stronger. There's hardly any advantage left. Not even to mention an endless FF saga — it's a large and surreal story in itself.

The time of inactivity has been too long I suppose. It does cost Pentax lots of anger and frustration from its fans, especially when nothing really new, really outstanding was announced in the last 3 years. Not a single DA limited, despite big gaps between them. Just a rehash, after rehash, dipped in this or that colour, and you bet, people do expect miracles and something more than that — whether that is unfounded or not. I personally like colourful cameras, but that is beside the point — everyone knows that it is the same camera from yesterday, just one model but with or without seals, with or without calibrated OVF. A minimum of effort.

I think many will be disappointed with whatever comes in in a few days, especially if the camera is a rehash of the K5, and just one camera and nothing else beside it (or even a new 645D, which will only confirm a wide price gap in the total Pentax lineup which hasn't been remedied in 3+ years).

The picture of people's expectations is simply too big. Can we blame them?

I think Ricoh did not manage brand expectations quite well, despite presumably good intentions, and I think they could have done it better. Sudden company change name, endless rehashes, not so stellar image of its US outlet, etc. well, no, it wasn't the best way to manage good expectations and perceptions. Therefore, I expect even worse comments plaguing this forum from September 5th. You can try to console them, give an explanation, but many won't hear about excuses.

But please don't suppose all such people are trolls. They have a right to be disappointed and it doesn't mean that seemingly rational explanations of yours or mine are any less works of fiction than big expectations; they are both based on our beliefs and projections, because we are all given zero facts.

In any case, we're like a bottle of champagne, well shaken and ready to explode.
All this fan stuff is ridiculous. If Pentax doesn't do what someone is looking for, they should swap over to another brand.

Expectations: It would be rational for Ricoh to present Pentax most thoroughly in places where they can sell plenty of stock at good margins. This may well not be Europe and North America. Whatever they do or don't present should to be considered in that light.

Most cameras, these days, can do everything 95 per cent of buyers will ever need in terms of taking photographs. The discussion of minutiae on webforms isn't common among the vast mass of buyers; in fact, it is extremely strange and rare. What most cameras these days cannot do is fit easily into the world of wifi/mobile, tablets, etc. This is a key challenge in front of brands like Pentax, I would suggest. It will be interesting to see whether they have a take on it. For about the price of just one new HD DA Limited lens, I can buy a very capable, higher-end iPad or a Samsung Galaxy Note. That and not Fujifilm is some tough competition.

Yes, people have a perfect right to be disappointed, even to have a completely miserable life if they so choose. For myself, I'd rather poke my eyes with chopsticks than go down that route. It's just a camera. At present it does all I need. There really isn't a problem whether Ricoh announce 127 new cameras or none.

Last edited by mecrox; 09-02-2013 at 09:18 AM.
09-02-2013, 08:04 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Not only that, even in the lens arena, many manufacturers have borrowed a page from the Pentax book from the age when Pentax was still making its original optics, like the DA limited range and during the time when Pentax was actively sleeping, the gap has narrowed. One can seriously ask: what's the Pentax advantage now 4 years after the last Limited lens was introduced? Then and there Pentax has stopped investing into its APS-C philosophy instead in making it even stronger. There's hardly any advantage left. Not even to mention an endless FF saga it's a large and surreal story in itself.
I've used Pentax SLRs for about 46 years. I've owned a number of K-mount film cameras and a number of K-mount dSLRs. I've owned many K-mount lenses over the years, and have quite a comprehensive set at the moment including 3 DA* lenses.

And I have never used a Limited lens. I don't think I've ever seen one. Certainly two of the Pentax users I know, and possibly two others too, don't use Limited lenses. Until I began reading forums like this I hadn't realised the Limited lenses were considered an important part of the Pentax story. I still suspect it a niche interest among Pentax users, but I would be interested in the sales figures compared with (say) camera figures.
09-02-2013, 10:05 AM   #222
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Well, i don't see more "Pentax specific" gear than The limited lenses, be it DA or FA.
You definitely miss something important
09-02-2013, 11:42 AM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Well, i don't see more "Pentax specific" gear than The limited lenses, be it DA or FA.
You definitely miss something important
Given that I am not the only one who has never seen Limited lenses as part of the attraction of Pentax systems, I suggest that there is actually more to Pentax than Limited lenses!

I have looked repeatedly at the specifications and reviews of every Limited lens. They appear lovely, but .... I have never identified a situation where I would put one on my camera rather than another lens. If I have missed something, it is obscure rather than important - to me.
09-02-2013, 11:51 AM   #224
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Try and borrow one, you might be surprised.
09-02-2013, 12:38 PM   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Try and borrow one, you might be surprised.
Surprised in what way?

Sometimes I use the "Metadata" feature in Lightroom to examine what focal lengths I use in various situations. I don't find clustering around the focal lengths of the Limited lenses. The majority of the time I use focal lengths much greater than the Limiteds. For a significant portion of the rest of the time I use the wide angle ends of my DA 10-17mm Fisheye and my DA 12-24mm f/4. The rest is largely covered by my DA 17-70mm f/4. That is why I say "I have never identified a situation where I would put one on my camera rather than another lens".

If I were travelling the world but could only take 2 of my lenses, they would certainly be my DA 12-24mm f/4 and my DA* 60-250mm f/4. (But I would prefer a WR version of the 12-24mm - I rely on WR a lot). If I were travelling the world with a severe weight restriction, I would take my Q system. whenever I am using my K-5IIs, it is so heavy that using a light lens won't turn it into a light-weight system.

I sometimes use prime lenses, but for specific purposes: my 55mm for portraits when I am interacting to do head & shoulders portraits; my 100mm for Macro work; my 300mm for action work when I don't need the flexibility of my 60-250mm (but I really want a WR 1.4x Teleconverter so that I have a 420mm version); and my Sigma 500mm f/4.5 for specialist work such as birding.
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