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08-27-2013, 02:57 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by troenaas Quote
After reading this post, I decided to read some GXR reviews. Based on this the rumor is not that far-fetched at all.

Just imagine:
The best of two worlds - Pentax and Ricoh
FF mirrorless
K-mount module
A-mount module
etc.
etc.

It could be a game changer!
Sony have just announced two new E-mount cameras. One has a DSLR-like form factor but is fully mirrorless with a 20.1mp sensor and would be the easier camera to manipulate with a larger lens. The other is a conventional NEX with, among other things, wifi and NFC thus allowing tethering, storage and LV on tablets.

Neither new Sony is a top-of-the-range model, but leaving that aside which do folks think is closer to the future of photography for the broad mass of the market: the Sony approach or the Ricoh approach proposed here? Bear in mind that the name of the game is selling bodies to establish a market for your proprietary mount so that the really profitable revenues can come from lens sales and the general ecosystem which grows up around it. Third-party manufacturers then come in. Like Zeiss for Sony - new lenses have also just been announced in that line. There is no Zeiss for Ricoh.

A modular camera system isn't anything for the broad middle of the market. It's a niche at best and the proposed Ricoh system suggests it would be a high-end one too, almost for professionals. If Ricoh want to go this route then all the best to them, naturally. But a system which seems based purely on mechanics, without any reference at all to modern IT and mobile, and which is just not for the broad market and the crucial sales from the accessories catalogue which might arise from that - if Ricoh think this is the future of photography, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's like Apple releasing an iPad with a hand-crank instead of a battery and a speaking tube instead of a mike. Interchangeable components might make perfect sense if you're Hasselblad or Phase One, but for an item in a consumer electronics store?

08-27-2013, 03:05 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Sony have just announced two new E-mount cameras. One has a DSLR-like form factor but is fully mirrorless with a 20.1mp sensor and would be the easier camera to manipulate with a larger lens. The other is a conventional NEX with, among other things, wifi and NFC thus allowing tethering, storage and LV on tablets.
The DSLR-like 3000 is full of compromises, I think it serves only one purpose: To compete with the low end DSLR offerings with a lookalike-DSLR. This is probably going to sell a lot in shops where there is nobody around to explain to you that it's not really a DSLR. But it might be a nice entry point into interchangeable lens photography for e.g. students on a very low budget. Add a cheap adapter and buy e.g. a SMC Pentax-M 50mm/1.7 and you can take wonderful pictures despite the ergonomic limitations.
08-27-2013, 03:08 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Interchangeable components might make perfect sense if you're Hasselblad or Phase One, but for an item in a consumer electronics store?
I'm also not sure if this makes much sense. It's interesting that the GR is the exact opposite: A compact camera with no configuration choices. A camera that is tempting to buy instead of a 21mm Limited lens...
08-27-2013, 03:22 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I'll add some style points because Asahiflex is the OP. He doesn't fool around with useless stuff.
Asahiflex is just a messenger; just because we trust him not to fool around with useless doesn't give any credibility to this rumor.

Mistral75 is the one closest to the source. Unfortunately, with all his good will, the details are scarce so we can't figure this one out. From a complete hoax to an existing project which might have been buried or not, there are too many possibilities.
I set myself as a target Photokina, by then I'd say we should have an idea about the direction Ricoh Imaging will be going. It's harder to wait without speculating endlessly, but it's more reliable

08-27-2013, 03:25 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Chuckle! I can't decide whether it is a hoax, a misinterpretation of some other proposal, an attempt to shift opinions in favour of some less extreme announcement, a report of a genuine Ricoh/Pentax "blue skies" pilot project, or something else. (I suppose I should have added "or the truth" to that list).
It is quite possible that this entire Tower of Babel it is not a single product, but rather a mixed up conclusion someone created in their mind by hearing bits and pieces from different technological ideas and projects that may, or may not, see the daylight.
If Ricoh-Pentax want to be game changers, or set some new trends and bring forward new ideas and excite people with something others don't do or do it boringly, one single product cannot make it.
08-27-2013, 03:27 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Asahiflex is just a messenger; just because we trust him not to fool around with useless doesn't give any credibility to this rumor.
Indeed, never trust anyone, much less me!

QuoteQuote:
Mistral75 is the one closest to the source. Unfortunately, with all his good will, the details are scarce so we can't figure this one out. From a complete hoax to an existing project which might have been buried or not, there are too many possibilities.
I set myself as a target Photokina, by then I'd say we should have an idea about the direction Ricoh Imaging will be going. It's harder to wait without speculating endlessly, but it's more reliable
Unfortunately the next Photokina is slightly more than a year away (Sept. 2014); Hopefully more concrete news will emerge in the coming weeks.
08-27-2013, 03:33 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
A modular camera system isn't anything for the broad middle of the market. It's a niche at best and the proposed Ricoh system suggests it would be a high-end one too, almost for professionals. If Ricoh want to go this route then all the best to them, naturally. But a system which seems based purely on mechanics, without any reference at all to modern IT and mobile, and which is just not for the broad market and the crucial sales from the accessories catalogue which might arise from that - if Ricoh think this is the future of photography, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's like Apple releasing an iPad with a hand-crank instead of a battery and a speaking tube instead of a mike. Interchangeable components might make perfect sense if you're Hasselblad or Phase One, but for an item in a consumer electronics store?
Yes, if it were the only member of an "A mount" range. I certainly wouldn't want Ricoh/Pentax wasting valuable R&D (and other) resources for just one such model in the range at a time, even though I might even buy one if it were launched.

But the question is: how far could that R&D be exploited to enable the eventual one-by-one launch of a whole product range from entry level through enthusiast level to (near?) professional level? Could they eventually fill all the slots (and more) in the Ricoh/Pentax product range that the K-mount cameras currently occupy?

An FF camera body with an EVF may not have to be as a big and heavy as an FF camera body with OVF. So the EVF body might also be suitable as an APS-C body and/or for entry level use, whereas perhaps an OVF body used for FF would be restricted to top-end use and not be suitable for other use. (It can be an advantage for both users and Ricoh/Pentax to share things in this way).

Similarly, a lens adapter could be built into the camera body for entry level use, restricting the lenses to the full K-mount range, instead of both K-mount and A-mount lenses for the more expensive models. There may also be other simplifications that would enable entry levels users to benefit from that R&D without being aware of it.
08-27-2013, 03:37 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
It's like Apple releasing an iPad with a hand-crank instead of a battery and a speaking tube instead of a mike.
A brand that is sold solely based on marketing and brand-recognition, has been matched (if not outclassed) by competitors for a while now but still sells products at an impudent price far above its competitors.
That's who I want to emulate from a business perspective, I get that, sure.
But from an engineers point of view - no, that's not what I think should be a goal.

08-27-2013, 04:15 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
The DSLR-like 3000 is full of compromises, I think it serves only one purpose: To compete with the low end DSLR offerings with a lookalike-DSLR. This is probably going to sell a lot in shops where there is nobody around to explain to you that it's not really a DSLR. But it might be a nice entry point into interchangeable lens photography for e.g. students on a very low budget. Add a cheap adapter and buy e.g. a SMC Pentax-M 50mm/1.7 and you can take wonderful pictures despite the ergonomic limitations.

Well, that's one opinion, but 400 USD for the body and 150 USD for a Chinese focal reducer, it looks to me like like the perfect camera for full frame M42 lenses Unlike the funky NEX wafer cameras nor the ubiquitous consumer APS-C DSLRs on the market.

Now if only the A3000 came with body stabilization . . .

Last edited by konraDarnok; 08-27-2013 at 04:32 AM.
08-27-2013, 04:42 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote

An FF camera body with an EVF may not have to be as a big and heavy as an FF camera body with OVF.
My Pentax ME Super SE, the FF film camera with an incredible OVF has 442 grams.
Olympus OMD5, m4/3 mirrorless state of the tech sensor exposing box with EVF built in (to me it fades compared to ME's pentaprism) is 425grams. They weight almost same — you can't feel the weight difference.

To me, the feeling ME Super produces when handling it, outshines any today's mirrorless. It inspires confidence, elegance, dependability, function, companionship. Great memories.

But poor OMD5 wasn't even out and crows of the crowd were already crying for a new, better one, one that has an EVF with 2 more fps, or is overall 13 grams lighter, etc. Now same story with the E-M1. Mirrorless cameras are simply cursed from the very day of their inception because they are never good enough.

Generally speaking, I take all this digital mirrorless boohooing and mostly empty talk with not a grain, but with a spoonful of sea salt, because it's truly indigestible. It's the feeling of the camera that matters, the emotional bond it is able to inspire, and I think both camera users and most manufacturers have lost their soul in the race towards some obscure goals a while ago, and are removing themselves from the elementary experience of photography ... and finding any memorable pleasure in it.

Last edited by Uluru; 08-27-2013 at 05:04 AM.
08-27-2013, 04:53 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Indeed, never trust anyone, much less me!

Unfortunately the next Photokina is slightly more than a year away (Sept. 2014); Hopefully more concrete news will emerge in the coming weeks.
We trust you all right - it's the rumor's credibility which is in question.

That's the idea, there should be enough time until then, and besides Photokina is a good occasion to launch significant products.
I'm sure we'll see some interesting products before that, maybe even this year
08-27-2013, 05:32 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
My Pentax ME Super SE, the FF film camera with an incredible OVF has 442 grams.
Olympus OMD5, m4/3 mirrorless state of the tech sensor exposing box with EVF built in (to me it fades compared to ME's pentaprism) is 425grams. They weight almost same you can't feel the weight difference.

To me, the feeling ME Super produces when handling it, outshines any today's mirrorless. It inspires confidence, elegance, dependability, function, companionship. Great memories.

But poor OMD5 wasn't even out and crows of the crowd were already crying for a new, better one, one that has an EVF with 2 more fps, or is overall 13 grams lighter, etc. Now same story with the E-M1. Mirrorless cameras are simply cursed from the very day of their inception because they are never good enough.

Generally speaking, I take all this digital mirrorless boohooing and mostly empty talk with not a grain, but with a spoonful of sea salt, because it's truly indigestible. It's the feeling of the camera that matters, the emotional bond it is able to inspire, and I think both camera users and most manufacturers have lost their soul in the race towards some obscure goals a while ago, and are removing themselves from the elementary experience of photography ... and finding any memorable pleasure in it.
I own an ME Super, and I'm typing this sentence one-handed because I have it in my other hand! But when I compare its viewfinder to my other SLR viewfinders I don't particularly like it now (although I probably did a long time ago). The camera is slow and noisy to operate, and its size isn't right for me - I either want a smaller lighter carry-everywhere camera (Q) or a bigger camera for a better grip (K-5IIs perhaps with battery grip). I suspect the ME Super would gain weight if it had batteries suitable for motor drive, or for illuminating a screen, (LCD panel on the back or EVF), for reviewing, examining the histogram, and all the other things that I use regularly.

I don't claim to be representative, and I certainly don't feel you are in any way wrong in your personal judgment. People differ. (I don't have long term emotional bonds to cameras. I like my K-5IIs, and since I bought it earlier this year I take taken over 50,000 raw shots with it. But it is likely that I will buy whatever Pentax launch later this year, if it has much better AF, and my K-5IIs will then become my back-up camera, and my K-5 will then be put back in its box awaiting a decision). Cameras are tools.
08-27-2013, 05:53 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by wullemaha Quote
A brand that is sold solely based on marketing and brand-recognition, has been matched (if not outclassed) by competitors for a while now but still sells products at an impudent price far above its competitors.
That's who I want to emulate from a business perspective, I get that, sure.
But from an engineers point of view - no, that's not what I think should be a goal.
I think you missed the point in your haste to pen a put-down on Apple. However, the metaphor was a poor one in the first place, because it assumed a mechanical solution was somehow inherently inferior in an age fascinated with electronics. In engineering, the simpler solution is often the more robust, no matter how unsophisticated it might look to those steeped in the narrowness of specialisation. I do realise, though, that if one's only tool is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.
08-27-2013, 06:31 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
We can lend some credence to that story based on Jim Malcolm's spring 2013 interview with DigitalCameraInfo, in which he stated that it took him longer to integrate the two engineering teams than he had originally envisioned it would. In his conferencec all with the Q Users Group we asked about that statement. He was very circumspect, but more or less implied they had differing views of the "main channel" of future technology. Interpret that as you will.
So we may also conclude he wasn't the best man for the job?
I mean, why we take everything that man says for granted and believe he and all the Ricoh management are God sent? It is only because he is the only Ricoh representative on this side of hell that talks in English and at least says something which necessarily doesn't mean it's whole truth.

Last edited by Uluru; 08-27-2013 at 06:39 AM.
08-27-2013, 06:38 AM   #75
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So, he is to blame because Pentax and Ricoh people had different views? I'm sure he also caused the global economic crisis and the Fukushima disaster...
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