Pentax K3 with 40 MP via sensor shift

vonBaloney · 09-27-2013, 10:13 PM

Kind in mind there is no reason whatsoever to expect this feature in the upcoming new model. I would be flabbergasted if they had such a thing...

scratchpaddy · 09-27-2013, 10:14 PM

The problem I see is that the "wait" would be in a single image with sensor shift. With the Sigmas, the wait is after the image, and only when the buffer fills up after 7 pictures. The wait is very long then, but you should have your shot before that.

This is a heavy crop from a DP2M without a tripod, in burst mode. Given enough light, the Sigma is as fast as I'd ever want it to be. I don't believe this picture would be possible with sensor-shift.

scratchpaddy · 09-27-2013, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by vonBaloney

Kind in mind there is no reason whatsoever to expect this feature in the upcoming new model. I would be flabbergasted if they had such a thing...

Of course not! Reality has no place in the Rumors forum.

vonBaloney · 09-27-2013, 10:32 PM

It's true -- such a feature would only be good for static subjects, and therefore will always be a niche thing. Which is why they'll never put it in a less-than-medium-format camera.But I would not be surprised to see it in a 645D update...

Uluru · 09-27-2013, 10:39 PM - **1 Like**

It's hard to say what would be possible with sensor glide.
If a normal Foveon doesn't need sensor shift yet it yields bad hi-ISO performance, gliding Bayer sensor can have a benefit of using hi-ISO to make many different shots. If the glide by one pixel is fast enough and measures in milliseconds, then using hi-ISO can help achieve shots like that. So if the two sensor shifts are needed, camera cranks the ISO up by two stops, increases the shutter speed, and takes three exposures in quick succession.
Things become even simpler with just one shift, which increases the colour fidelity up to 50%; not a Foveon, but still better than regular non-moving Bayer. Suddenly, we have lots of options.
The new iPhone uses a handful of similar tricks, albeit without sensor shift, and composes the final image out of 4 different ones, impeccably calculates exposure, stitches panoramas, etc. All in real time. It needs lots of processing power, but we are entering that era of image processing.

Clavius · 09-27-2013, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by scratchpaddy

The problem I see is that the "wait" would be in a single image with sensor shift. With the Sigmas, the wait is after the image, and only when the buffer fills up after 7 pictures. The wait is very long then, but you should have your shot before that.

This is a heavy crop from a DP2M without a tripod, in burst mode. Given enough light, the Sigma is as fast as I'd ever want it to be. I don't believe this picture would be possible with sensor-shift.

That shouldn't wouldn't be possible with a 30 second exposure either... So our cameras supporting such long exposures is utterly useless.

[/sarc]

Class A · 09-28-2013, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Uluru

After two sensor shifts — one left, one up — the situation is like this:

You could improve on this, if you shifted only by half a pixel, thus increasing overlap and resolution at the same time.

BrianR · 09-28-2013, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by Uluru

It's hard to say what would be possible with sensor glide.
If a normal Foveon doesn't need sensor shift yet it yields bad hi-ISO performance, gliding Bayer sensor can have a benefit of using hi-ISO to make many different shots. If the glide by one pixel is fast enough and measures in milliseconds, then using hi-ISO can help achieve shots like that. So if the two sensor shifts are needed, camera cranks the ISO up by two stops, increases the shutter speed, and takes three exposures in quick succession.

That dog shot still doesn't seems possible. Even if a new camera can manage 10 frames per second, that dog would have moved significantly between 2 frames let alone 3 or 4. Higher shutter speed won't help if your in-between shot time is too long compared to the subjects movement.

It would still be a neat addition even if it may not be usable for all types of photos.

Uluru · 09-28-2013, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by BrianR

That dog shot still doesn't seems possible. Even if a new camera can manage 10 frames per second, that dog would have moved significantly between 2 frames let alone 3 or 4. Higher shutter speed won't help if your in-between shot time is too long compared to the subjects movement.

It would still be a neat addition even if it may not be usable for all types of photos.

New iPhone does just that; it takes several shots, and then combines best parts from all images into a final one. Each photo you take with a new iPhone is a composite image. It's become totally bullet proof and Apple does all that to make people's photos as best looking as possible, and make iPhone most loved camera in the world. Real photographers may despise such a level of manipulation, but there you go ...

Clavius · 09-28-2013, 06:22 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Uluru

New iPhone does just that; it takes several shots, and then combines best parts from all images into a final one. Each photo you take with a new iPhone is a composite image. It's become totally bullet proof and Apple does all that to make people's photos as best looking as possible, and make iPhone most loved camera in the world. Real photographers may despise such a level of manipulation, but there you go ...

"Real photographers"? If such features do not trickle upwards to DSLRs, then there will be increasingly less reason for people to choose a DSLR over their Iphone.

Same goes for real-time panorama stitching. It's an example I've mentioned before. With my simple android smartphone, that came FREE with my phone subscription, I can turn on the camera and swipe across a scene, while it takes pictures. The phone uses the accelerometer to stitch the images together. When one of the picture isn't usable it instantly indicates it and requires me to shoot that particular part again. The results are very impressive and it makes me wonder why my €1200,- Pentax K-5 can't do that BETTER. But it can't. It can, but then I need to go 10 years into the past, use a tripod, with a pano-head, and invest hours in shooting, manipulating, stitching and processing.

asw66 · 09-28-2013, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

"Real photographers"? If such features do not trickle upwards to DSLRs, then there will be increasingly less reason for people to choose a DSLR over their Iphone.

Aye. The innovations in phone cameras are quite startling, and I hope that Ricoh/Pentax are taking notice.

mamethot · 09-28-2013, 06:38 AM

With the amount I spend on a camera, I would expect features trickle downwards from DSLRs. Now we have 1000$ devices that can do a single thing (imaging) getting features from the 700$ versatile device.

Agreed that the imaging from an SLR is better in some aspects but...

It's like if F1 race cars would get the improvements from mass production cars. It's the opposite way around.

normhead · 09-28-2013, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by scratchpaddy

The problem I see is that the "wait" would be in a single image with sensor shift. With the Sigmas, the wait is after the image, and only when the buffer fills up after 7 pictures. The wait is very long then, but you should have your shot before that.

This is a heavy crop from a DP2M without a tripod, in burst mode. Given enough light, the Sigma is as fast as I'd ever want it to be. I don't believe this picture would be possible with sensor-shift.

No kidding. This whole concept sounds like a Foveon sensor only worse.

Cynog Ap Brychan · 09-28-2013, 07:52 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Clavius

Same goes for real-time panorama stitching. It's an example I've mentioned before. With my simple android smartphone, that came FREE with my phone subscription, I can turn on the camera and swipe across a scene, while it takes pictures. The phone uses the accelerometer to stitch the images together. When one of the picture isn't usable it instantly indicates it and requires me to shoot that particular part again. The results are very impressive and it makes me wonder why my €1200,- Pentax K-5 can't do that BETTER. But it can't. It can, but then I need to go 10 years into the past, use a tripod, with a pano-head, and invest hours in shooting, manipulating, stitching and processing.

I take your point, but I have taken many successful hand-held panoramas with my K-5. All one has to do is keep the camera reasonably level and ensure each image overlaps by an appropriate amount. This takes seconds. Granted, I then have to stitch the image, but in Photoshop CS5 this is just a matter of loading the raw files and letting the software do the necessary. Minutes, not hours, and very satisfactory too (I get half my fun from PP, though I may not be typical in that respect). And I bet my panoramas will contain far more detail than that from any iPhone. OK, with a tripod and pano head, I could do even better, but I can get really good results without them.

And for the record, cameras in phones are of no interest to me whatsoever, though I might conceivably use one if a UFO landed in front of me, and I didn't have a real camera with me (though, I'm more likely to have a camera than my mobile phone when I'm out and about, but that's another story)

normhead · 09-28-2013, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan

And for the record, cameras in phones are of no interest to me whatsoever, though I might conceivably use one if a UFO landed in front of me, and I didn't have a real camera with me (though, I'm more likely to have a camera than my mobile phone when I'm out and about, but that's another story)

But you have to admit, if you're going out and you have "oh god I can't go out without a camera" anxiety, slipping your phone into a pocket is less obtrusive than most cameras. I mean, it's not often I want a camera in a grocery store, but I used to carry one before I got my iPhone.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Which Pentax compacts have sensor shift SR?	p38arover	Pentax Compact Cameras	5	08-08-2013 06:13 AM
$2000 Superb Pentax 645D 40.0 MP with DFA AL IF SDM AW 55mm	Sliver-Surfer	Pentax Price Watch	23	07-12-2013 12:12 PM
Official Pentax K3 Full Frame 24 MP	Den	Pentax Full Frame	16	04-07-2013 02:09 AM
Dynamic Range of Pentax 16 mp sensor	Steven Chain	Photographic Technique	11	01-22-2013 04:20 PM
Native ISO of the 14.6 MP CMOS Sensor (with !shocking! attempt to lighten mood!)	solar1	Pentax DSLR Discussion	22	01-27-2008 06:15 PM

09-27-2013, 10:13 PM	#76
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Kind in mind there is no reason whatsoever to expect this feature in the upcoming new model. I would be flabbergasted if they had such a thing...

09-27-2013, 10:14 PM	#77
scratchpaddy Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Phoenix Posts: 3,361	The problem I see is that the "wait" would be in a single image with sensor shift. With the Sigmas, the wait is after the image, and only when the buffer fills up after 7 pictures. The wait is very long then, but you should have your shot before that. This is a heavy crop from a DP2M without a tripod, in burst mode. Given enough light, the Sigma is as fast as I'd ever want it to be. I don't believe this picture would be possible with sensor-shift.

09-27-2013, 10:14 PM	#78
scratchpaddy Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Phoenix Posts: 3,361	Originally posted by vonBaloney Kind in mind there is no reason whatsoever to expect this feature in the upcoming new model. I would be flabbergasted if they had such a thing... Of course not! Reality has no place in the Rumors forum.

09-27-2013, 10:32 PM	#79
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	It's true -- such a feature would only be good for static subjects, and therefore will always be a niche thing. Which is why they'll never put it in a less-than-medium-format camera.But I would not be surprised to see it in a 645D update...

09-27-2013, 10:39 PM - 1 Like	#80
Uluru Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,535	It's hard to say what would be possible with sensor glide. If a normal Foveon doesn't need sensor shift yet it yields bad hi-ISO performance, gliding Bayer sensor can have a benefit of using hi-ISO to make many different shots. If the glide by one pixel is fast enough and measures in milliseconds, then using hi-ISO can help achieve shots like that. So if the two sensor shifts are needed, camera cranks the ISO up by two stops, increases the shutter speed, and takes three exposures in quick succession. Things become even simpler with just one shift, which increases the colour fidelity up to 50%; not a Foveon, but still better than regular non-moving Bayer. Suddenly, we have lots of options. The new iPhone uses a handful of similar tricks, albeit without sensor shift, and composes the final image out of 4 different ones, impeccably calculates exposure, stitches panoramas, etc. All in real time. It needs lots of processing power, but we are entering that era of image processing.

09-27-2013, 11:37 PM	#81
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by scratchpaddy The problem I see is that the "wait" would be in a single image with sensor shift. With the Sigmas, the wait is after the image, and only when the buffer fills up after 7 pictures. The wait is very long then, but you should have your shot before that. This is a heavy crop from a DP2M without a tripod, in burst mode. Given enough light, the Sigma is as fast as I'd ever want it to be. I don't believe this picture would be possible with sensor-shift. That shouldn't wouldn't be possible with a 30 second exposure either... So our cameras supporting such long exposures is utterly useless. [/sarc]

09-28-2013, 12:34 AM	#82
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Uluru After two sensor shifts — one left, one up — the situation is like this: You could improve on this, if you shifted only by half a pixel, thus increasing overlap and resolution at the same time.

09-28-2013, 04:59 AM	#83
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by Uluru It's hard to say what would be possible with sensor glide. If a normal Foveon doesn't need sensor shift yet it yields bad hi-ISO performance, gliding Bayer sensor can have a benefit of using hi-ISO to make many different shots. If the glide by one pixel is fast enough and measures in milliseconds, then using hi-ISO can help achieve shots like that. So if the two sensor shifts are needed, camera cranks the ISO up by two stops, increases the shutter speed, and takes three exposures in quick succession. That dog shot still doesn't seems possible. Even if a new camera can manage 10 frames per second, that dog would have moved significantly between 2 frames let alone 3 or 4. Higher shutter speed won't help if your in-between shot time is too long compared to the subjects movement. It would still be a neat addition even if it may not be usable for all types of photos.

09-28-2013, 06:06 AM	#84
Uluru Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,535	Originally posted by BrianR That dog shot still doesn't seems possible. Even if a new camera can manage 10 frames per second, that dog would have moved significantly between 2 frames let alone 3 or 4. Higher shutter speed won't help if your in-between shot time is too long compared to the subjects movement. It would still be a neat addition even if it may not be usable for all types of photos. New iPhone does just that; it takes several shots, and then combines best parts from all images into a final one. Each photo you take with a new iPhone is a composite image. It's become totally bullet proof and Apple does all that to make people's photos as best looking as possible, and make iPhone most loved camera in the world. Real photographers may despise such a level of manipulation, but there you go ...

09-28-2013, 06:22 AM - 1 Like	#85
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by Uluru New iPhone does just that; it takes several shots, and then combines best parts from all images into a final one. Each photo you take with a new iPhone is a composite image. It's become totally bullet proof and Apple does all that to make people's photos as best looking as possible, and make iPhone most loved camera in the world. Real photographers may despise such a level of manipulation, but there you go ... "Real photographers"? If such features do not trickle upwards to DSLRs, then there will be increasingly less reason for people to choose a DSLR over their Iphone. Same goes for real-time panorama stitching. It's an example I've mentioned before. With my simple android smartphone, that came FREE with my phone subscription, I can turn on the camera and swipe across a scene, while it takes pictures. The phone uses the accelerometer to stitch the images together. When one of the picture isn't usable it instantly indicates it and requires me to shoot that particular part again. The results are very impressive and it makes me wonder why my €1200,- Pentax K-5 can't do that BETTER. But it can't. It can, but then I need to go 10 years into the past, use a tripod, with a pano-head, and invest hours in shooting, manipulating, stitching and processing.

09-28-2013, 06:35 AM	#86
asw66 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 347	Originally posted by Clavius "Real photographers"? If such features do not trickle upwards to DSLRs, then there will be increasingly less reason for people to choose a DSLR over their Iphone. Aye. The innovations in phone cameras are quite startling, and I hope that Ricoh/Pentax are taking notice.

09-28-2013, 06:38 AM	#87
mamethot Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Greater Montreal Area Posts: 736	With the amount I spend on a camera, I would expect features trickle downwards from DSLRs. Now we have 1000$ devices that can do a single thing (imaging) getting features from the 700$ versatile device. Agreed that the imaging from an SLR is better in some aspects but... It's like if F1 race cars would get the improvements from mass production cars. It's the opposite way around.

09-28-2013, 07:05 AM	#88
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by scratchpaddy The problem I see is that the "wait" would be in a single image with sensor shift. With the Sigmas, the wait is after the image, and only when the buffer fills up after 7 pictures. The wait is very long then, but you should have your shot before that. This is a heavy crop from a DP2M without a tripod, in burst mode. Given enough light, the Sigma is as fast as I'd ever want it to be. I don't believe this picture would be possible with sensor-shift. No kidding. This whole concept sounds like a Foveon sensor only worse.

09-28-2013, 07:52 AM - 1 Like	#89
Cynog Ap Brychan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Gloucester Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	Originally posted by Clavius Same goes for real-time panorama stitching. It's an example I've mentioned before. With my simple android smartphone, that came FREE with my phone subscription, I can turn on the camera and swipe across a scene, while it takes pictures. The phone uses the accelerometer to stitch the images together. When one of the picture isn't usable it instantly indicates it and requires me to shoot that particular part again. The results are very impressive and it makes me wonder why my €1200,- Pentax K-5 can't do that BETTER. But it can't. It can, but then I need to go 10 years into the past, use a tripod, with a pano-head, and invest hours in shooting, manipulating, stitching and processing. I take your point, but I have taken many successful hand-held panoramas with my K-5. All one has to do is keep the camera reasonably level and ensure each image overlaps by an appropriate amount. This takes seconds. Granted, I then have to stitch the image, but in Photoshop CS5 this is just a matter of loading the raw files and letting the software do the necessary. Minutes, not hours, and very satisfactory too (I get half my fun from PP, though I may not be typical in that respect). And I bet my panoramas will contain far more detail than that from any iPhone. OK, with a tripod and pano head, I could do even better, but I can get really good results without them. And for the record, cameras in phones are of no interest to me whatsoever, though I might conceivably use one if a UFO landed in front of me, and I didn't have a real camera with me (though, I'm more likely to have a camera than my mobile phone when I'm out and about, but that's another story)

09-28-2013, 08:28 AM	#90
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan And for the record, cameras in phones are of no interest to me whatsoever, though I might conceivably use one if a UFO landed in front of me, and I didn't have a real camera with me (though, I'm more likely to have a camera than my mobile phone when I'm out and about, but that's another story) But you have to admit, if you're going out and you have "oh god I can't go out without a camera" anxiety, slipping your phone into a pocket is less obtrusive than most cameras. I mean, it's not often I want a camera in a grocery store, but I used to carry one before I got my iPhone.