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10-01-2013, 08:34 AM   #241
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You mean like "How many Newtons would a Fig Newton be if a FIg Newton was measured in Newtons?"

10-01-2013, 08:35 AM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
More importantly, why are the measured in grams or ounces.
Well while at it...why do Europeans weigh flour and sugar and americans and canadians measure volume when cooking?
10-01-2013, 08:35 AM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You mean like "How many Newtons would a Fig Newton be if a FIg Newton was measured in Newtons?"
Exactly!
10-01-2013, 08:37 AM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by mamethot Quote
Well while at it...why do Europeans weigh flour and sugar and americans and canadians measure volume when cooking?
Actually, Americans use dry measure and liquid measure when cooking. A liquid cup is different than a dry cup.

10-01-2013, 08:37 AM   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I didn't say that. Re-read it. Does you bathroom scale have Newtons on it? Does the analytical balance in my lab have Newtons on it?
"The unit of measurement for weight is that of force, which in the International System of Units (SI) is the newton. For example, an object with a mass of one kilogram has a weight of about 9.8 newtons on the surface of the Earth, and about one-sixth as much on the Moon."

"The terms weight and mass are often confused with each other in everyday discourse but they are distinct quantities."

"Considerable confusion exists in the use of the term "weight." In commercial and everyday use, the term "weight" nearly always means mass. In science and technology "weight" has primarily meant a force due to gravity. In scientific and technical work, the term "weight" should be replaced by the term "mass" or "force," depending on the application.
The use of the verb "to weigh" meaning "to determine the mass of," e.g., "I weighed this object and determined its mass to be 5 kg," is correct."

(The National Standard of Canada, CAN/CSA-Z234.1-89 Canadian Metric Practice Guide, January 1989)
10-01-2013, 08:41 AM   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
"The unit of measurement for weight is that of force, which in the International System of Units (SI) is the newton. For example, an object with a mass of one kilogram has a weight of about 9.8 newtons on the surface of the Earth, and about one-sixth as much on the Moon."

"The terms weight and mass are often confused with each other in everyday discourse but they are distinct quantities."

"Considerable confusion exists in the use of the term "weight." In commercial and everyday use, the term "weight" nearly always means mass. In science and technology "weight" has primarily meant a force due to gravity. In scientific and technical work, the term "weight" should be replaced by the term "mass" or "force," depending on the application.
The use of the verb "to weigh" meaning "to determine the mass of," e.g., "I weighed this object and determined its mass to be 5 kg," is correct."

(The National Standard of Canada, CAN/CSA-Z234.1-89 Canadian Metric Practice Guide, January 1989)
Again, go back and read my post. I know the difference. Here is what I said.

QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The gram is the unit of measure for both. A scientific distinction between mass and weight is unimportant formost practical purposes because the strength of gravity is ~ same everywhere on the surface of the Earth.
Pentax doesn't list Newtons on there spec sheets for lenses and camera bodies.
10-01-2013, 08:41 AM   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Actually, I just checked the analytical balances in my lab and they do not have Newtons on them. Plus, terms like "molecular weigh," "chemical weight" and "atomic weight" are widely used among scientists and engineers.
please stand up and apologize. the highly scientific nature of this discussion demands the utmost precision, and you just went and screwed that up with your layman terminology, in the process making all participants to the discussion look like "common people" (how dis-tasteful). and don't you dare bring up the argument that "how much does this weigh" is an accepted english inaccuracy, and that the expected answer is always in units of mass. Nor do i expect you dare point out that, as "how much does this weigh" "two ounces" is older than the concept of mass (well, older in greek probably), thus it means newton or whoever simply had it backwards, and mis-used the existing names (weight should have meant mass as it was already being used like that, etc). Don't you _dare_ bring reason into this (again), this is about scientific prestige and and.. and stuff, okay?
10-01-2013, 08:42 AM   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Actually, I just checked the analytical balances in my lab and they do not have Newtons on them. Plus, terms like "molecular weigh," "chemical weight" and "atomic weight" are widely used among scientists and engineers.
Yes and when someone uses, say, kilograms in the context of weight, the inference is kilograms-force. Just look at the units. It says it all.

Mass is one of the 7 fundamental units. All other units (watt, joule, newton, etc) are derived from those fundamental units. Weight (a force) has the following fundamental units in the SI system:

(mass)*(meter)/(second)^2

Those are the units of force and weight plain and simple.

10-01-2013, 08:49 AM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Yes and when someone uses, say, kilograms in the context of weight, the inference is kilograms-force. Just look at the units. It says it all.

Mass is one of the 7 fundamental units. All other units (watt, joule, newton, etc) are derived from those fundamental units. Weight (a force) has the following fundamental units in the SI system:

(mass)*(meter)/(second)^2

Those are the units of force and weight plain and simple.
You kind of missed the point. Newton isn't listed on the spec sheets by Nikon or Pentax. Neither to scales nor most analytical balances. Now if you can give us an exact definition of gravity, that will be interesting.
10-01-2013, 09:00 AM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Actually, Americans use dry measure and liquid measure when cooking. A liquid cup is different than a dry cup.
Now you got me. Layman me cook uses the same tool to measure liquids and solids/dry.
10-01-2013, 09:14 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
You kind of missed the point. Newton isn't listed on the spec sheets by Nikon or Pentax. Neither to scales nor most analytical balances. Now if you can give us an exact definition of gravity, that will be interesting.
Yes, sorry for the tangent.

But my camera that is 145 x 122 x 81 watts in dimension and only shoots a slow 5 frames per newton is larger than Pentax DSLR. But both cameras are too large to fit in a pocket and both carry in a backpack equally as well.
10-01-2013, 09:14 AM   #252
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Use a cotton carrier / blackrapid strap and minimal difference in gear weight /size matters little. It matters when you use the DA limiteds though as today the K-5 + limiteds combo is not even close to anything else in APSC world except the Canon APS + 5D with the 40mm pancake (which like the DA 40 is also a good lens, and is fully FF).

I dont think FF can fully replace a K-5 + DA limited combo in terms of fun and usability, hence why I think this lens line is the one Pentax have to push.

Unfortunately it is hard to quantify "fun" "usability", "rendering", and "microcontrast". People just see the price tag and realize that it's cheaper to get Nikon 20-35, Tamron 28-75, and Nikon 80-200 that cost $1200-$1300 total used, and have a "more capable" kit with f 2.8 going from 20 to 200 (15 to 135 in APSC). The FF body is still $1600 though.

Last edited by Andi Lo; 10-01-2013 at 09:20 AM.
10-01-2013, 09:17 AM - 1 Like   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by mamethot Quote
Now you got me. Layman me cook uses the same tool to measure liquids and solids/dry.
Now I know why my food does not taste as good as Gorden Ramsay's food even though I'm following his recipe.
10-01-2013, 09:52 AM - 2 Likes   #254
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Yeesh. I majored in English. Language. I'm helpless.

I just go to the camera store and pick 'em up. Stick a lens on 'em. Then I stuff 'em my bag. If it isn't too heavy or too big then I'm good.

I don't know from grams and Newtons and ounces and pounds and Joules and Force = Mass x Acceleration and when do you square anyway?.
10-01-2013, 12:22 PM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Yes and when someone uses, say, kilograms in the context of weight, the inference is kilograms-force. Just look at the units. It says it all.

Mass is one of the 7 fundamental units. All other units (watt, joule, newton, etc) are derived from those fundamental units. Weight (a force) has the following fundamental units in the SI system:

(mass)*(meter)/(second)^2

Those are the units of force and weight plain and simple.
Isn't the key to use units that most people can understand. I really have no idea how much a Newton is, while I do have a pretty good feel for how much a kilogram is, on earth anyway. Not having been to any of the other planets in our solar system, I guess I don't have a feel for it's weight there.
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