New image of K-3!?

Winder · 09-30-2013, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

The grain is smaller but the amplitude of the noise goes up proportionately. So there is really no net gain in a test lab scenario, and very minor gain in printed photographs.

Actually the gain is very real and if the S/N ratio is the same then then noise does not go up. I shot with a Canon 5D for years and was looking at the A900 to switch over to Sony. The S/N curve of the two cameras is very similar, but when I tested both cameras on A3+ sized prints the A900 printed noticeably better images with finer "grain" to the noise at higher ISO.

If you can show me an example of the noise going up proportionately I would like to see it.

rodjo · 09-30-2013, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by rawr

Yes, 16MP is so 2010. I can't understand how anyone could live with technology that old.

You can buy NOKIA with 41MPX, good luck

rawr · 09-30-2013, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

The grain is smaller but the amplitude of the noise goes up proportionately.

Originally posted by Winder

Actually the gain is very real and if the S/N ratio is the same then then noise does not go up

Has everyone forgotten about this article:
DxOMark - More pixels offset noise!

Quote:

"For equal, normalized SNR, a high-resolution camera is still better than a low-resolution camera."

ElJamoquio · 09-30-2013, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by rawr

Has everyone forgotten about this [Stone Age, 2008] article:
DxOMark - More pixels offset noise!

Forgotten? Never read it, but this is what I was talking about:

Winder · 09-30-2013, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by rawr

Has everyone forgotten about this article:
DxOMark - More pixels offset noise!

No. I was actually going to post the link to it.

goubejp · 09-30-2013, 02:21 PM

And more pixels reduce moiré, this is usefull with a AA filterless sensor

MarkJerling · 09-30-2013, 04:58 PM

That looks pretty real to me. There's some K-50 design traces in there, such as the AF lamp housing and the SR logo. I'd say we finally have a real K-3 photo. After all the many rumours, it looks like the next best Pentax is about to launch!
I like the way the design is conservatively and stylistically so close to the K-5. The 'bump' on the right of the photo must be for some round connector Wonder what it is?

The base looks near identical to K-5 and K-7 so with luck the D-BG4 battery grip is compatible. If this is not real, then someone has spent a considerable time in Photoshop.

**Digitalis** · 09-30-2013, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by goubejp

And more pixels reduce moiré, this is usefull(sic) with a AA filterless sensor

No they don't, if you are using a lens that is fast enough you can still encounter it.

bwDraco · 09-30-2013, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by MarkJerling

The 'bump' on the right of the photo must be for some round connector Wonder what it is?

Best guess: It's for the cable release. On the K-7/K-5 series, this connector is on the left side (when looking towards the lens) just below the memory card slot. If you think about it, this could mean dual SD card slots--moving this connector to the right side of the unit, along with the slightly increased height, produces sufficient space for two SD cards.

--DragonLord

**jatrax** · 09-30-2013, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

No they don't, if you are using a lens that is fast enough you can still encounter it.

Are you saying there is an inverse relationship? IE more pixels reduce moire for a given lens speed, but changing the lens speed to a wider aperture increases the chance of moire for a given number of pixels?

Class A · 09-30-2013, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Forgotten? Never read it, but this is what I was talking about:

So why did you write "the amplitude of the noise goes up proportionately"?

The amplitude of the noise does not go up. The noise distribution becomes wider, i.e., is distributed over more spatial frequencies and hence looks better. The wider distribution even implies that the amplitude (maximum peak value) goes down, compared to the larger pixel image (the same power is distributed over a wider range).

I'm talking about image noise, not individual pixel noise. The latter obviously gets higher as the pixel size goes down, but that's irrelevant for the whole image.

Class A · 09-30-2013, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by MarkJerling

The 'bump' on the right of the photo must be for some round connector Wonder what it is?

Wasn't the K-3 rumoured to have a connector for ear phones?

Would be a reasonable place to put it there.

Class A · 09-30-2013, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

No they don't, if you are using a lens that is fast enough you can still encounter it.

Pardon?

Of course, higher pixel density reduces the chances of moiré occurring.

I'm assuming you wanted to write "sharp enough" rather than "fast enough" because lens speed is not relevant here. But even the sharpest lens has a resolution limit and if you make the pixels small enough, the lens acts as a sufficient low pass filter to avoid moiré completely.

Avoiding moiré completely is tough, but every increase in pixel density helps. That's why the 36MP D800E makes a lot more sense than the 16MP K-5 IIs.

snake · 09-30-2013, 11:42 PM

People on various forums, including DPR, are already polling for preorders on the K-3, as if it's fact.

I would love nothing more to see this turn out to be another work.

MarkJerling · 10-01-2013, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by DragonLord

Best guess: It's for the cable release. On the K-7/K-5 series, this connector is on the left side (when looking towards the lens) just below the memory card slot. If you think about it, this could mean dual SD card slots--moving this connector to the right side of the unit, along with the slightly increased height, produces sufficient space for two SD cards.

--DragonLord

2 cards would be a great change!

09-30-2013, 10:33 PM	#371
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Forgotten? Never read it, but this is what I was talking about: So why did you write "the amplitude of the noise goes up proportionately"? The amplitude of the noise does not go up. The noise distribution becomes wider, i.e., is distributed over more spatial frequencies and hence looks better. The wider distribution even implies that the amplitude (maximum peak value) goes down, compared to the larger pixel image (the same power is distributed over a wider range). I'm talking about image noise, not individual pixel noise. The latter obviously gets higher as the pixel size goes down, but that's irrelevant for the whole image. Last edited by Class A; 09-30-2013 at 10:46 PM.

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09-30-2013, 12:05 PM	#361
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by ElJamoquio The grain is smaller but the amplitude of the noise goes up proportionately. So there is really no net gain in a test lab scenario, and very minor gain in printed photographs. Actually the gain is very real and if the S/N ratio is the same then then noise does not go up. I shot with a Canon 5D for years and was looking at the A900 to switch over to Sony. The S/N curve of the two cameras is very similar, but when I tested both cameras on A3+ sized prints the A900 printed noticeably better images with finer "grain" to the noise at higher ISO. If you can show me an example of the noise going up proportionately I would like to see it.

09-30-2013, 12:07 PM	#362
rodjo New Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Zagreb Photos: Albums Posts: 8	Originally posted by rawr Yes, 16MP is so 2010. I can't understand how anyone could live with technology that old. You can buy NOKIA with 41MPX, good luck

09-30-2013, 01:39 PM	#363
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by ElJamoquio The grain is smaller but the amplitude of the noise goes up proportionately. Originally posted by Winder Actually the gain is very real and if the S/N ratio is the same then then noise does not go up Has everyone forgotten about this article: DxOMark - More pixels offset noise! Quote: "For equal, normalized SNR, a high-resolution camera is still better than a low-resolution camera."

09-30-2013, 01:40 PM	#364
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by rawr Has everyone forgotten about this [Stone Age, 2008] article: DxOMark - More pixels offset noise! Forgotten? Never read it, but this is what I was talking about:

09-30-2013, 02:13 PM	#365
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by rawr Has everyone forgotten about this article: DxOMark - More pixels offset noise! No. I was actually going to post the link to it.

09-30-2013, 02:21 PM	#366
goubejp Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: France Photos: Albums Posts: 804	And more pixels reduce moiré, this is usefull with a AA filterless sensor

09-30-2013, 04:58 PM	#367
MarkJerling Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 20,403	That looks pretty real to me. There's some K-50 design traces in there, such as the AF lamp housing and the SR logo. I'd say we finally have a real K-3 photo. After all the many rumours, it looks like the next best Pentax is about to launch! I like the way the design is conservatively and stylistically so close to the K-5. The 'bump' on the right of the photo must be for some round connector Wonder what it is? The base looks near identical to K-5 and K-7 so with luck the D-BG4 battery grip is compatible. If this is not real, then someone has spent a considerable time in Photoshop.

09-30-2013, 07:21 PM	#368
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by goubejp And more pixels reduce moiré, this is usefull(sic) with a AA filterless sensor No they don't, if you are using a lens that is fast enough you can still encounter it.

09-30-2013, 09:04 PM	#369
bwDraco Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: New York Photos: Albums Posts: 1,071	Originally posted by MarkJerling The 'bump' on the right of the photo must be for some round connector Wonder what it is? Best guess: It's for the cable release. On the K-7/K-5 series, this connector is on the left side (when looking towards the lens) just below the memory card slot. If you think about it, this could mean dual SD card slots--moving this connector to the right side of the unit, along with the slightly increased height, produces sufficient space for two SD cards. --DragonLord

09-30-2013, 09:09 PM	#370
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by Digitalis No they don't, if you are using a lens that is fast enough you can still encounter it. Are you saying there is an inverse relationship? IE more pixels reduce moire for a given lens speed, but changing the lens speed to a wider aperture increases the chance of moire for a given number of pixels?

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09-30-2013, 10:34 PM	#372
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by MarkJerling The 'bump' on the right of the photo must be for some round connector Wonder what it is? Wasn't the K-3 rumoured to have a connector for ear phones? Would be a reasonable place to put it there.

09-30-2013, 10:37 PM	#373
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Digitalis No they don't, if you are using a lens that is fast enough you can still encounter it. Pardon? Of course, higher pixel density reduces the chances of moiré occurring. I'm assuming you wanted to write "sharp enough" rather than "fast enough" because lens speed is not relevant here. But even the sharpest lens has a resolution limit and if you make the pixels small enough, the lens acts as a sufficient low pass filter to avoid moiré completely. Avoiding moiré completely is tough, but every increase in pixel density helps. That's why the 36MP D800E makes a lot more sense than the 16MP K-5 IIs.

09-30-2013, 11:42 PM	#374
snake Banned Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: NY/Germany Posts: 1,183	People on various forums, including DPR, are already polling for preorders on the K-3, as if it's fact. I would love nothing more to see this turn out to be another work.

10-01-2013, 01:20 AM	#375
MarkJerling Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 20,403	Originally posted by DragonLord Best guess: It's for the cable release. On the K-7/K-5 series, this connector is on the left side (when looking towards the lens) just below the memory card slot. If you think about it, this could mean dual SD card slots--moving this connector to the right side of the unit, along with the slightly increased height, produces sufficient space for two SD cards. --DragonLord 2 cards would be a great change!