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03-28-2008, 05:56 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
How about battery and electronics? That's a good excuse, IMO
Nope.
There was plenty of empty space left for the film!

Be serious, battery + electronics can be credit card size with 12 MP P&S, so what?

03-28-2008, 08:57 PM   #17
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If they do move forward with a 645D, I wonder what crop factor there will be for existing 645 and 6x7 lenses. 30 megapixels would be a nice bump up and provide similar detail to 6x7 slide film, with much improved noise characteristics. If they price it around $3-4K they'd take a lot of business from Canon & Nikon full frame. My understanding is that the Canon 1DS Mark III has very long waiting lists, even at $7995.
03-28-2008, 08:59 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
I read this as "2-digit" and "3-digit" K-series; i.e. KxxD and KxxxD series.
OMG, then I better send the set of betas back and not test them, I guess they just gave up. Thanks for the heads up.
03-28-2008, 10:04 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
I read this as "2-digit" and "3-digit" K-series; i.e. KxxD and KxxxD series.
I meant it in that sense too, I guess I just wasn't too clear.

I'm a little confused with the supposed pricing of the 645D. John Carlson said a little while ago that they couldn't produce the 645D at the price point people were assuming it would be, which I always figured would be ~$5000, but now this (apparently) says that it would be cheaper than that even? I can think of two possiblities:

A) Pentax/Hoya isn't telling Pentax USA much of anything and thus they are left to try and make up the best story to tell us, or
B) The price from this story looks so good because of the weak dollar.

QuoteQuote:

Be serious, battery + electronics can be credit card size with 12 MP P&S, so what?
yes, but we're talking a substantially larger sensor handling a substantial amount of data at extreme speeds. Electronics tend to run hot, and if I recall correctly heat increases noise. Also, as for batteries, the smaller batteries don't seem to have the juice to power a DSLR, especially one that runs the motors on some rather big honkin lenses. For example, the Pentax D-Li8 runs at 3.7v and 710mAh, whereas the D-Li50 runs at twice the voltage and more than twice the amps (7.4v, 1620mAh).


Last edited by clawhammer; 03-28-2008 at 10:14 PM.
03-29-2008, 05:54 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Nope.
There was plenty of empty space left for the film!

Be serious, battery + electronics can be credit card size with 12 MP P&S, so what?
Wow. I'd be happy to use a smaller DSLR with a credit card sized battery - 3.7V and ~750mAh. The camera will be really sluggish (low voltage), I could take about 150 pictures per charge but I would be happy.
Not.

Come on, the sensor is thicker than film; and the battery, well, take a look at a D-LI50. That's how a small DSLR battery looks, and there is nothing that can be done for now.
Yes, the Canon NB-2LH is smaller, but that's a 720mAh (7.4V) battery - the D-LI50 has 1620mAh. And Pentax cameras will need more "juice".
03-29-2008, 04:30 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Come on, the sensor is thicker than film; and the battery,
Please, don't turn the words in my mouth. I guess you know what I wanted to say.

And then, the sensor is not thicker than film plus its pressure blade, it is just a chip (thinner). I give it an extra 3mm for SR though

And where the two sides of the film role used to be you find plenty (read: PLENTY!!!) of space to put electronics and a LiOn. For longer run, we are used to battery grips anyway.

So let me repeat: An MX-sized FF DSLR is quite feasible. That a K10/20D is larger than a *istD is driven by demand, not technology.


Personally, I would like Pentax to conquer that "small but powerful" niche again.
03-29-2008, 05:04 PM   #22
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It's actually sensor+SR platform+LCD vs. film+pressure plate.
"Plenty" of space? Please take a D-LI50 and try to put in in a MX

I'd also like a smaller but fully-featured DSLR (Limited-like ). But MX-sized, I can't see how they could do it. Adding a battery, processor(s), memory, AF system (motor, sensor, logic), back LCD, top LCD, more buttons, sensor with it's SR platform... it's not that easy, you know. And the MX is quite small for a film camera.
IMO the battery is one of the biggest issues. Now with the live view-mania, a DSLR will still need a powerful battery no matter how efficient (energy-wise) is the electronic inside.
03-29-2008, 06:29 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
How about battery and electronics? That's a good excuse, IMO
Agreed--- a large volume ends up being things that the MX didn't have---a pop up flash, and a massive battery partially offset by the lack of need for film management space. But they can get small. I played with a little canon point and shoot the other day. Not much to it.--shirt pocket sized.

03-29-2008, 09:14 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by HawaiianOnline Quote
Personally I think the whole idea of the relatively cheap "consumer" MF camera to be a pipe dream unless Samsung finds some way of making relatively cheap MF sized sensors.

That said I would still love to own one...
That is what I think Samsung and Pentax are up to. They are busy designing a medium format CMOS sensor (as well as a full frame 35mm sensor). CMOS sensors are cheaper to make than CCD sensors, so it will allow Pentax to cut costs and be able to compete with Mamiya. The 645D's specifications call for a Kodak CCD sensor, which is expensive. Therefore the 645D is officially dead. However, medium format digital cameras remain in the plans of Pentax, albeit with a cheaper, probably made by Samsung, medium format sensor.
03-30-2008, 12:54 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Maxington Quote
Amen to that, I wouldn't care if it had no fancy functionality or speed at all, as long as it could take hugely detailed, high pixel count, high DR photos.

A lightproof box with a MF sensor in it, with a lens mount clapped onto the front.
This would sound sweet .
How much higher is the DR of Medium Format, compared to DSLR crop ?


The Pro Medium Format Pentax, would probably run 8 - 10.000 $. And then the Prosumer at a later point, 5.000 $

Likely they would make a crop format, like the proposed 645D, so that older lenses could be safely used.
03-30-2008, 06:03 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by WendyB Quote
OMG, then I better send the set of betas back and not test them, I guess they just gave up. Thanks for the heads up.
What he said sounds about right.

"Settled" meaning that they are here to stay perhaps?
03-31-2008, 07:09 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's actually sensor+SR platform+LCD vs. film+pressure plate.

I'd also like a smaller but fully-featured DSLR (Limited-like ). But MX-sized, I can't see how they could do it. Adding a battery, processor(s), memory, AF system (motor, sensor, logic), back LCD, top LCD, more buttons, sensor with it's SR platform... it's not that easy, you know. And the MX is quite small for a film camera.
This would be great, indeed. High quality but not "overfeatured" limited camera with smart design and a limited form factor. How realistic is MX-size? Taking a look at the Panasonic Lumix DSLR, wich shows a great design IMO, by the way,

DMC-L1:________________________________MX:
606 g (21.4 oz)__________________________495 g
146 x 87 x 77 mm (5.8 x 3.4 x 3 in)_________135.8 x 82.5 x 49.3 mm

and has the "advantage" of a smaller sensor, no "real" pentaprism-viewfinder and no shake reduktion, which would be very cool for such a camera considering it's main usage at AV, one can probably get an idea of the bottom line for such a concept. Some trade offs to the smallness of an mx probably, well, nevertheless a very appealing idea.

L1
MX

Greetings, m

Last edited by MMVIII; 04-01-2008 at 04:25 AM. Reason: changed images...
03-31-2008, 07:53 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Talisker Quote
IMHO the physical size of FF cameras would have to be somehow reduced for them tocompletely supplant those with smaller sensor sizes (ignoring price differential, of course). We live in an age of minaturisation - the mass market will not buy cameras the size and weight of bricks. The average reaction to my K10 with grip attached goes quickly from 'that must be a good camera' to 'how do you carry that thing - I wouldn't want to' as soon as you let the admirer hold it - and that includes my DL carrying wife
Miniaturization is not everything! And miniaturization is certainly not a goal in MF.

People may well look at you like you are a nut for carrying around a K10D with BG and a Bigma, but then when you are doing that you are choosing the "form" suitable for the "function". I often carry a small P&S when I don't need to shoot serious photos and thus do not need the "big iron" of the K10D. Again, this is choosing the appropriate "form" for the "function"..

MF is no different. Since MF is typically used in slower paced photography such as landscapes or in controlled environments such as the studio, the physical size is not seen as a problem. In those environments, the "form" fits the "function". Naturally, try to use a Hassleblad on the sidelines of a NFL football game and you'll need a couple of sherpas to prop up your camera and lens. Most likely though you'd probably not even attempt something like that since the "form" is not appropriate for the "function".

Now, to address your "mass-market" comment. MF is not aimed at the mass market! MF is aimed at professionals and experienced amateurs/enthusiasts. The group of customers IS willing to buy cameras "the size and weight of bricks" to get the quality they need or desire. The current form of MF bodies was arrived at after decades of ergonomic testing and fine tuning. It works very well in the environments it is intended for.
03-31-2008, 09:31 AM   #29
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I wouldn't disagree with any of that - however, I was responding to a suggestion that Pentax might end up being the only company producing APS-C bodies, while everyone else was on FF, which is something else entirely.

Mind you, my own MF is a Bronica 645RF outfit which is smaller and lighter than the K10 with the grip attached!
03-31-2008, 09:56 AM   #30
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I doubt that Pentax will be the only company in APS-C but that is irrelevent. I personally don't really care about the APS-C/FF debate. There are advantages and disadvantages to both which I do not feel qualified to get into (or care to thrash out again).

However, my main reason for thinking that Pentax will continue to perfect and support APS-C is the effort they are putting into the DA* lenses. They do have a lot of FA lenses but would have to dust off many designs and restore manufacturing lines to begin supporting a Pro level FF body. They would also need to re-engineer them to provide the weather sealing we have come to expect. This feature would add size and expense as well (note how much larger the DA*s are than the non-weathersealed DA lenses).

This same argument could of course apply to the MF arena. There are 645 lenses readily available but to support a new digital MF body they would have to restore manufacturing capabilities. I don't think the weather sealing will be as important for MF but if they intend it to be a landscaper's camera, it could well become paramount (thus enlarging those lenses too).

Pentax has always been more about the glass than the body so I think the key indicators are the lenses. Unless they suddenly start adding FA* lenses to the lens roadmap, I will believe they are continuing with APS-C.

Of course, they could be keeping a tight lip on a plethora of new FA* lenses so as to make the FF system announcement bigger... LOL
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