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10-26-2013, 04:59 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
And that's the paradox: K-3 must be a kick-ass feature-full product better than competition in every regard even to start selling decently; meager D7100 with a D800 next to it, or even old dog 7D with 5DIII, will still outsell K-3.
We shall see. We shall see. And it should be a D610, (or D600, which was a rushed, flawed product) not a D800 next to the 7100.

But this year and next year don't matter as much as five years from now. This year is one step in a longer plan.

10-26-2013, 09:42 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I'm going to call BS on this. I don't think 50% of Pentax user base even knows what 'FF' means and could care less if they did. Just because a bunch of gear enthusiasts on an internet forum want a FF Pentax doesn't mean any significant portion of the user base does. Total FF camera market is share is supposed to be around 5% from what I've seen posted, so are you saying that 10 times more Pentax users want FF than the rest of the industry?

I don't necessarily disagree that Pentax should come out with a FF camera but making up meaningless numbers to support your theory is not going to scare Ricoh into doing it.
It may be that 50% or more do not "know" how to use full frame or what it is. But a plus and a very big "Plus" is once they have the experience of shooting FF they will have been profoundly changed within their aspect and approach to just "good enough to get by images" to "wow I never knew I could ever do that".

With over 35 years of my own experience with shooting FF film and the transition to digital purely Pentax all the way (if I was purchasing any other brand it would pop my cherry) and knowing the capability of FF. It is a no brain-er that FF Digital in the hands of the casual to advanced amateur photographer will open a whole new world to capturing images with thought.

The best part is they wont even think about it, they will fall in love with it. Ricoh knows this and ... God I love winter holidays.

Then take into consideration those who want to shoot HD DSLR video in anamorphic for a cinema-scope look in a 2.35:1 ratio. FF and all the other goodies the K-3 spec's have to the anticipated K 35II and companion LX 35D mirror-less. The results will be simply stunning. Oop's Sorry I just blew my Beta NDA Sue me IDGAF the Pentax crowd need's to know.

Then also take into consideration we are approaching and moving forward from 32 bit depth, now 64 Bit depth, to 128 bit and soon 264 bit depth. Wow I never ever thought this would ever be seen in my lifetime, but it will. BIG WOW

Last edited by pento57mm; 10-26-2013 at 09:57 PM.
10-26-2013, 10:28 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by pento57mm Quote
It may be that 50% or more do not "know" how to use full frame or what it is. But a plus and a very big "Plus" is once they have the experience of shooting FF they will have been profoundly changed within their aspect and approach to just "good enough to get by images" to "wow I never knew I could ever do that".

With over 35 years of my own experience with shooting FF film and the transition to digital purely Pentax all the way (if I was purchasing any other brand it would pop my cherry) and knowing the capability of FF. It is a no brain-er that FF Digital in the hands of the casual to advanced amateur photographer will open a whole new world to capturing images with thought.

The best part is they wont even think about it, they will fall in love with it. Ricoh knows this and ... God I love winter holidays.

Then take into consideration those who want to shoot HD DSLR video in anamorphic for a cinema-scope look in a 2.35:1 ratio. FF and all the other goodies the K-3 spec's have to the anticipated K 35II and companion LX 35D mirror-less. The results will be simply stunning. Oop's Sorry I just blew my Beta NDA Sue me IDGAF the Pentax crowd need's to know.

Then also take into consideration we are approaching and moving forward from 32 bit depth, now 64 Bit depth, to 128 bit and soon 264 bit depth. Wow I never ever thought this would ever be seen in my lifetime, but it will. BIG WOW
What.
10-26-2013, 10:35 PM   #79
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"What."
That`s what I was going to say........

10-26-2013, 10:46 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by pento57mm Quote
Then take into consideration those who want to shoot HD DSLR video in anamorphic for a cinema-scope look in a 2.35:1 ratio. FF and all the other goodies the K-3 spec's have to the anticipated K 35II and companion LX 35D mirror-less. The results will be simply stunning. Oop's Sorry I just blew my Beta NDA Sue me IDGAF the Pentax crowd need's to know.

Then also take into consideration we are approaching and moving forward from 32 bit depth, now 64 Bit depth, to 128 bit and soon 264 bit depth. Wow I never ever thought this would ever be seen in my lifetime, but it will. BIG WOW
Glad to hear your enthusiasm! "K 35II" is an interesting name for a K-mount FF, what happened to just "K 35"?

Not sure I follow you on the bit depth - I understand the principles, but which technology are you referring to?
10-26-2013, 11:23 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
:

Well, if they don't release an FF DSLR, they'll lose about remaining 50% of the Pentax userbase who are still hanging on thread.
Pentax users were begging for FF DSLR, not some weird gizmo, and if the K-3 shape will do it, let's bloody do it. It is actually disgraceful behaviour from Ricoh for delaying it so long they should be ashamed. And they have no excuses for it they have screwed it up. And I read this official apology from Ricoh Imaging Russia just as that "give us please a little more time."

Even a shoebox with a K-mount and FF sensor will do, how things are now. Let them first address that camera, and then let them play around with mirrorless legos and playdough.

On the mirrorless end, I don't give a damn what will Ricoh do. They may experiment with whatever they fancy, and do the craziest designs in the world. And they may stamp "Ricoh" all over the body and lenses.
50% of the remaining user base...not even close. You're letting your own despair cloud your judgment. Full frame isn't that important to a vast majority of the user base, it is important to a very vocal and active group on the various boards, however.
10-27-2013, 01:22 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
They're doing first things first. Some things such as modern manufacturing processes and machines are investments necessary to make a competitive FF camera - even a competitive APSc camera - but you and we will never see them or even know they happened.

Pentax is building a strong foundation for a long-term commitment to cameras. Full Frame will come in its time. There will be a market, there will be cameras, there will be customers and there will be Pentax.

Right now there is a K3 and I've ordered one.
And they need the extra FF lenses, especially zooms!

I expect my K-3 will be enough of a leap forward that I won't be thinking much about FF over the next year.
10-27-2013, 01:47 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rorschach Quote
50% of the remaining user base...not even close. You're letting your own despair cloud your judgment. Full frame isn't that important to a vast majority of the user base, it is important to a very vocal and active group on the various boards, however.
He did actually say "50% of the Pentax user base who are hanging on a thread". That's different from "50% of the Pentax user base (all of whom are hanging on a thread)". Whether or not that was intentional, I couldn't say, but 50% of those who are hanging on a thread could be anywhere between say 2 and 2,000, or whatever number you'd care to make up. It isn't 50% of all Pentax users.

10-27-2013, 03:52 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Pentax is building a strong foundation for a long-term commitment to cameras. Full Frame will come in its time. There will be a market, there will be cameras, there will be customers and there will be Pentax. Right now there is a K3 and I've ordered one.
I have ordered one too, and if all Pentaxians supported Pentax by buying their products instead of complaining and always thinking that the grass is greener on the other side and jumping ship,we may then see some bigger investment in our camera system. Too many look at Pentax's short-comings instead of their strengths, constructive criticism is good but saying Pentax is dead because it hasn't yet got a FF camera is ridiculous.
PS. I have currently "supported" Pentax enough for 10 of us.
Glenn
10-27-2013, 04:37 AM - 1 Like   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by filoxophy Quote
What.
QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
"What."
That`s what I was going to say........
Well, I was just thinking "incoherent", but close enough.
10-27-2013, 05:07 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by G and T Quote
I have ordered one too, and if all Pentaxians supported Pentax by buying their products instead of complaining and always thinking that the grass is greener on the other side and jumping ship,we may then see some bigger investment in our camera system. Too many look at Pentax's short-comings instead of their strengths, constructive criticism is good but saying Pentax is dead because it hasn't yet got a FF camera is ridiculous.
PS. I have currently "supported" Pentax enough for 10 of us.
Glenn
Ricoh/Pentax will make much of their money from lenses rather than cameras.

I wonder if they are discouraged by the number of Pentaxians who say they want an FF camera because they already have FF lenses for it? (Whether old Pentax lenses, or others such as Sigma).

Not the happiest business environment!
10-27-2013, 06:03 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Ricoh/Pentax will make much of their money from lenses rather than cameras.
This is the usual camera buisiness model, so why would Ricoh/Pentax make a FF camera without first developing new lenses.
If they release the camera too early without new lenses I'm sure Sigma and Tamron will take too many of their profits.
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10-27-2013, 07:31 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by G and T Quote
This is the usual camera buisiness model, so why would Ricoh/Pentax make a FF camera without first developing new lenses.
If they release the camera too early without new lenses I'm sure Sigma and Tamron will take too many of their profits.
Glenn
Exactly what I think. I think Ricoh/Pentax would be foolish to launch an FF camera unless they both had suitable lenses, including key zooms, and the confidence that people would buy those lenses as well as the camera.
10-27-2013, 12:21 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Ricoh/Pentax will make much of their money from lenses rather than cameras.
I see this posted so often that it is taken as fact. But I wonder how correct it is?
Groups of buyers:
  1. Those who buy the 1 or 2 lens kit and never buy another lens. When they get a new camera they buy a new kit, maybe even changing brands.
  2. Those who buy the kit and maybe the DA 50mm f/1.8 or DA 35mm f/2.4. They will likely change bodies going forward but might never buy another lens.
  3. Those who buy the 'standard' high end zooms like DA*16-50 and DA*60-250 and that's it. Will certainly change bodies going forward but maybe not need any new lenses.
  4. Those who like and use a good collection of lenses such as DA* and Limited. Will buy a good number of expensive pieces of glass over time.
  5. Those who have a good collection of vintage glass. Will certainly change up bodies but have no need for any 'new' glass.


I will say it is most likely the margins are higher on glass, but total dollars or total profit? I'm not so sure. We have no statistics to confirm or disprove anything but if we assume most buyers just buy a kit and maybe a couple of primes I don't see the dollars coming from the glass but rather in having customers buy new cameras every year or so.


Remember bodies come and go, glass is forever.
@Barry: not jumping on your comment specifically, just wondering. I've always assumed this to be true myself, but thinking about it, if it were true would not camera companies churn glass more and bodies less?
10-27-2013, 12:51 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Remember bodies come and go, glass is forever.
Not really, these days. Focus motors, stabilization, build quality, changes of mount: all conspire to shorten the productive life of a lens, and repairs to modern electronic lenses can be expensive. The glory days of the bullet-proof MF lens which will last for 20-30 years are gone now (except for Leica and Zeiss perhaps if there no no major changes of mount which means they cannot be used as intended). Bodies 2-5 years, lenses 5-10 years perhaps?
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