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12-13-2013, 10:29 AM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
Most people have flat displays and display all images at more or less the same size, regardless of AOV.
Not necessarily.

Look at what @Panoguy does, or how you view Theta images.
Those techniques would work fine with output from a spherical sensor.

12-13-2013, 11:24 AM   #377
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Kunzite, in this world, there are not many 100% reliable sources, on net or elsewhere. So everything, including what I know, is not 100% proof.

That's why I don't participate in long debates. I express my opinion once, and that's all.

Last edited by JimmyDranox; 12-13-2013 at 11:40 AM.
12-13-2013, 11:26 AM - 2 Likes   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
That's what puzzles me too...and do the lenses that were released under Hoya's reign have better DXO test charts than previous lenses? I didn't get the impression they were better than the 31Ltd which is (probably?) the sharpest FA lens.
How lenses score on DXO tests is not really the point at issue. The point was whether scoring high on tests should have be a particularly high priority. Jun Hirakawa argued, essentially, that lenses should be designed primarily to achieve aesthetic, rather than "numerical" test, goals. But this does not mean that a lens designed to produce images that look particularly well to human perception can't also do well on numerical tests. Just as it would be a mistake to assume that there exists a 100% correlation between how well a lens performs and the aesthetic qualities of the images it produces, it would also be a mistake to assume that there's no correlation at all between tests and aesthetic perception. The point is that tests should never be the final arbiter of the performance of a lens, when aesthetic goals, as evaluated by human perception, are primary. The DA* 55 f1.4 was Jun Hirakawa's last Pentax designed lens. Last I checked, that was the highest scoring Pentax lens over at DxO. But Hirakawa didn't design the lens to score high at DxO. That's just something that happened adventiously; it's just sort of the way things fell out. Hirakawa also designed the DA 10-17. That lens scores poorly on numerical tests. Photozone, shocked at its uninspiring scores, gave it only two stars (out of five). But Photozone's review completely misses the point of the lens. Whatever it's optical defects, the DA 10-17 is capable of producing images that look stunning to human perception. And since, last I checked, photography is an aesthetic pursuit where the photographer tries to make images for the purpose of looking at them, how images taken with a specific lens look to human perception has to be more important than how that same lens does on numerical tests.
12-13-2013, 11:56 AM   #379
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
And since, last I checked, photography is an aesthetic pursuit where the photographer tries to make images for the purpose of looking at them, how images taken with a specific lens look to human perception has to be more important than how that same lens does on numerical tests.
couldn't agree more!

12-13-2013, 12:15 PM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
The DA* 55 f1.4 was Jun Hirakawa's last Pentax designed lens. Last I checked, that was the highest scoring Pentax lens over at DxO. But Hirakawa didn't design the lens to score high at DxO.
Anyone know the release dates of lenses after that. I was actually wondering because it might corroborate that story about his retirement. I.e., if lenses after that did unusually well in DxO (for Pentax) from the surviving designers.

I haven't noticed anything aesthetically bad w/ the latest ultra sharp magic pixie dust lenses from Canikon though. They just look bloody sharp w/ a lot of microcontrast (which I think is a big part of the aesthetics, though you don't the in-lens PP vignetting w/ them).
12-13-2013, 12:33 PM   #381
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Anyone know the release dates of lenses after that. I was actually wondering because it might corroborate that story about his retirement. I.e., if lenses after that did unusually well in DxO (for Pentax) from the surviving designers.

I haven't noticed anything aesthetically bad w/ the latest ultra sharp magic pixie dust lenses from Canikon though. They just look bloody sharp w/ a lot of microcontrast (which I think is a big part of the aesthetics, though you don't the in-lens PP vignetting w/ them).
I think they are all OK. The one thing I would say is that the out of focus rendering of the FA limiteds can be pretty special.

I do doubt the story about the scoring better in DXO Mark. Hoya just didn't release any super fast, super sharp lenses. Everything nice they released (DA *55, DA *60-250) was pretty much started under Pentax. Hoya releases were rebadges or, adding sealing (WR versions of existing lenses, DA 18-135, DA 35 f2.4, DA 50 f1.8). If you want to do well on DXO Mark, you need fast lenses with good light transmission and sharpness and that is what they weren't turning out.
12-13-2013, 12:58 PM   #382
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
Kunzite, in this world, there are not many 100% reliable sources, on net or elsewhere. So everything, including what I know, is not 100% proof.

That's why I don't participate in long debates. I express my opinion once, and that's all.
I never asked for a 100% reliable source; the situation is the complete opposite, no source whatsoever was specified.
I'm not interested in determining who's right and who's wrong either, and I wouldn't mind if the engineers-fired-because-they-refused-to-make-Canikon-like-lenses theory would be proven to be well-founded (note that I'm not saying 100% certain). However, it appears that's not the case.

By the way, this is the translated technical report I'm talking about. I know it's better suited to the SLR lenses area (maybe it was already posted there), but since we started talking about Jun Hirakawa...
1.jpg (image)
2.jpg (image)
3.jpg (image)
4.jpg (image)
Translation done by nottoohairy / DPReview.

Rondec, that's exactly why I don't buy it, either. Lens development was in a sharp decline after the 2008 peak, the last Hoya-era high end K lens being the 2009 15mm f/4 Limited. Jun Hirakawa's last lens was announced in 2008, like all the other DA*s.
It all looks like cost cutting, not internal rebellion.
12-13-2013, 01:24 PM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I never asked for a 100% reliable source; the situation is the complete opposite, no source whatsoever was specified.
I'm not interested in determining who's right and who's wrong either, and I wouldn't mind if the engineers-fired-because-they-refused-to-make-Canikon-like-lenses theory would be proven to be well-founded (note that I'm not saying 100% certain). However, it appears that's not the case.

By the way, this is the translated technical report I'm talking about. I know it's better suited to the SLR lenses area (maybe it was already posted there), but since we started talking about Jun Hirakawa...
1.jpg (image)
2.jpg (image)
3.jpg (image)
4.jpg (image)
Translation done by nottoohairy / DPReview.

Rondec, that's exactly why I don't buy it, either. Lens development was in a sharp decline after the 2008 peak, the last Hoya-era high end K lens being the 2009 15mm f/4 Limited. Jun Hirakawa's last lens was announced in 2008, like all the other DA*s.
It all looks like cost cutting, not internal rebellion.
saved those figures. nice info. thanks!

At this point, I will be happy even if PENTAX come out a nice 35mm film camera.
Film is not dead yet!

12-13-2013, 01:53 PM   #384
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Yeah, I know, film is not dead - it just smells funny
12-13-2013, 04:17 PM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Lens development was in a sharp decline after the 2008 peak, the last Hoya-era high end K lens being the 2009 15mm f/4 Limited.
But after that release, there were new lenses for other formats, like Q and 645.
12-13-2013, 07:33 PM - 1 Like   #386
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I never asked for a 100% reliable source; the situation is the complete opposite, no source whatsoever was specified.
I'm not interested in determining who's right and who's wrong either, and I wouldn't mind if the engineers-fired-because-they-refused-to-make-Canikon-like-lenses theory would be proven to be well-founded (note that I'm not saying 100% certain). However, it appears that's not the case.

By the way, this is the translated technical report I'm talking about. I know it's better suited to the SLR lenses area (maybe it was already posted there), but since we started talking about Jun Hirakawa...
1.jpg (image)
2.jpg (image)
3.jpg (image)
4.jpg (image)
Translation done by nottoohairy / DPReview.

Rondec, that's exactly why I don't buy it, either. Lens development was in a sharp decline after the 2008 peak, the last Hoya-era high end K lens being the 2009 15mm f/4 Limited. Jun Hirakawa's last lens was announced in 2008, like all the other DA*s.
It all looks like cost cutting, not internal rebellion.
Thanks Kunzite

I've compiled the original scans and English translation of the Hirakawa Jun article into a single PDF for everyone.

The pdf is here.
12-14-2013, 02:11 AM   #387
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gray Quote
Thanks Kunzite

I've compiled the original scans and English translation of the Hirakawa Jun article into a single PDF for everyone.

The pdf is here.
Thanks. I'm glad I managed to find it again

QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
But after that release, there were new lenses for other formats, like Q and 645.
Yes, indeed, the two D FA645 lenses (the 55 and the 25) should be considered high end; but the Q ones, not so much. This way we'd have one high end lens per year, between 2009-2011.
I'm not sure when they were developed - the 645 was first shown to the public in 2005, but after being practically re-done (with different electronics and more than double the resolution) it saw the market 5 years later.
12-14-2013, 02:36 AM   #388
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Hoya releases were rebadges or, adding sealing (WR versions of existing lenses, DA 18-135, DA 35 f2.4, DA 50 f1.8).
Except for the 18-135 which didn't exist at all and came straight to DC/WR version
12-14-2013, 04:21 AM   #389
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Except for the 18-135 which didn't exist at all and came straight to DC/WR version
True, but it certainly doesn't fit the bill of a lens "designed to score highly on DXO Mark tests."
12-14-2013, 05:30 AM   #390
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
The DA* 55 f1.4 was Jun Hirakawa's last Pentax designed lens. Last I checked, that was the highest scoring Pentax lens over at DxO. But Hirakawa didn't design the lens to score high at DxO. That's just something that happened adventiously;
How do you know about the motives of Hirakawa?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems to me another piece of speculation. Monochrome may remember the rumour 100% correctly, but it still remains a rumour. I've read about it then, but also remember that no one ever knew anything definitive. To the best of my knowledge no authoritative account of what happened between Pentax and Hirakawa has ever been published. Just people speculating this and that.

FWIW, I love the 43/1.9 and 77/1.8 and very much agree with the design philosophy to fine tune the lens according to aesthetic considerations as opposed to optimising performance for certain optical benchmarks. However, I do not like the rendering of the 55/1.4. It may be Hirakawa's work but it appears to me too much emphasis has been given of improving performance at f/1.4 compared to the FA 50/1.4 and too little consideration was given to the quality of the bokeh. Some people like it, I personally find the 55/1.4's bokeh unappealing.
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