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10-25-2013, 10:06 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
The only thing we know with any degree of certainty (and that information is getting a little old, now) is Ricoh senior managers have said that, if they do release a FF body, it won't be conventional. Precisely what that means isn't clear, and has been the source of much speculation, here and elsewhere, but it implies such a body wouldn't be like the K-3 is to the D7100.
I do not believe that the "non-conventional" aspect implies that the Pentax FF model would not be like what the K-3 is to the D7100.

An AA-filter-simulator is already not conventional.

They could probably add a superresolution feature à la Hasselblad. A 36MP FF sensor with sensor-shift-based superresolution may well challenge MF territory (which may be a reason for the delay of the 645D II, but I don't really believe that myself).

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Pentax does not try to be too clever and go mirrorless with their FF model. They only need to look to Sony to see what happens if you don't offer an optical viewfinder. Maybe they'll reincarnate the exchangeable viewfinder concept and could thus allow both optical and electronic modules.

But whatever they do, I sincerely hope it won't be a departure from the classic DSLR concept. It seems most likely that the K-3 body will be reused for the upcoming FF-model, so yes, I'm hopeful that the "non-conventional" promise does not mean mirrorless or anything similarly radical.

10-25-2013, 10:22 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Pentax does not try to be too clever and go mirrorless with their FF model. They only need to look to Sony to see what happens if you don't offer an optical viewfinder. Maybe they'll reincarnate the exchangeable viewfinder concept and could thus allow both optical and electronic modules.
...Because, what happened with Sony's A7(r) then? Sony struck a home run. I pre ordered both models with four lenses. Two of my colleagues ordered one of the models. Looking at what a missing viewfinder, mirrorbox, mirrormechanism, vf optics and what not, does for the price and size of the camera, I can say that I will miss the OVF like a bad toothache.
10-25-2013, 10:51 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
...Because, what happened with Sony's A7(r) then? Sony struck a home run. I pre ordered both models with four lenses. Two of my colleagues ordered one of the models. Looking at what a missing viewfinder, mirrorbox, mirrormechanism, vf optics and what not, does for the price and size of the camera, I can say that I will miss the OVF like a bad toothache.
Overall, while they both have their advantages, I prefer an EVF. The HUD is just too useful and the image is getting very good. I think Pentax could do well to go mirrorless FF. Competition is great for us, and I hope they one up Sony.
10-26-2013, 12:04 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Not really, the source is Ogl who says that he got the information from somebody with Ricoh Imaging Russia.
There is a small possibility of Ogl lying, or some people convincingly masquerading as Ricoh Imaging Russia officials - but I'm not seriously taking into consideration either of them

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Actually this yours and Monochrome's repeated "I told ya" only confirms my "I told ya";
— Ricoh started development of anything new only after the FotoKina 2012, and in early 2013.
— That is why in the end of 2013 they have nothing else to show but prematurely released K-3 and endless rehashes.
— And it also shows that they have not funded anything new prior to 2013, because if it were true, we'd see some of it by now, even a new lens.
— Ricoh had literally waited 15 months to start thinking what to do next.
— If the Pentax part of the company was protesting about it, that Ricoh delays funding and misses important development cycles, losing endlessly waiting Pentax userbase only to appear as non-risk-taking in front of shareholders, and thus to keep the share prices stabile, no wonder they had issues.
— When they've seen how other manufacturers are nuking the market with FF bombs, finally Ricoh Imaging Russia feels to address the poor communication issue, and at least reassure fans they indeed are working, and when is reasonable to expect things they are working on .
— "To be number 3 imaging company in 4 years" story was a lie told by Ricoh imaging USA to buy time before their own fans and users.

God bless Russians for at least one drop of sincerity in all of this Muppet Show.
Except that I'm not telling "told ya" gratuitously.
- Ricoh definitely "started development" before "early 2013". We know that in 2012 they were working on FF with the intention to have a marketable product; and the K-3 was supposed to be launched in spring.
Your suppositions are completely unsubstantiated.
- there's nothing premature about the long-awaited K-3. In contrast, the K-5 was prematurely launched - the fact that nobody knew the buffer size (later corrected by a firmware) shows this.
- it's rude to decide to call people "liars"; and since you don't bring any evidence, I'd say you made it up.
Sadly, you're transforming into a RiceHigh; you just want to complain, mostly about your own suppositions.

10-26-2013, 12:16 AM - 3 Likes   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
— Ricoh had literally waited 15 months to start thinking what to do next.
I see that you don't have any experience regarding product development. Hint: it takes time. Especially when it starts with a company merger
10-26-2013, 12:21 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I do not believe that the "non-conventional" aspect implies that the Pentax FF model would not be like what the K-3 is to the D7100.

An AA-filter-simulator is already not conventional.

They could probably add a superresolution feature à la Hasselblad. A 36MP FF sensor with sensor-shift-based superresolution may well challenge MF territory (which may be a reason for the delay of the 645D II, but I don't really believe that myself).

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Pentax does not try to be too clever and go mirrorless with their FF model. They only need to look to Sony to see what happens if you don't offer an optical viewfinder. Maybe they'll reincarnate the exchangeable viewfinder concept and could thus allow both optical and electronic modules.

But whatever they do, I sincerely hope it won't be a departure from the classic DSLR concept. It seems most likely that the K-3 body will be reused for the upcoming FF-model, so yes, I'm hopeful that the "non-conventional" promise does not mean mirrorless or anything similarly radical.
That's correct.
If we go back to the source - instead of trying to remember - we'll see it isn't "radical"; it's just about finding an USP. That it would be completely different, radical etc was just people trying to push their own preferences (think: MILC).
What they said is that it will be a SLR.
10-26-2013, 12:55 AM - 11 Likes   #82
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So what I'm reading between the lines in the above replies is: the K-3 is not good enough, Ricoh is late, doesn't know what they're doing, does not have a classic fullframe like the rumoured Nikon FM digital etc.

Frankly, the pessimism here is overwhelming. Ricoh has the dubious honor to have the worst whining customers of any brand. Who needs enemies when you can have Pentaxians? I'm sick and tired to read about what Ricoh does wrong every time another brand brings out a new camera.

Really, you guys and gals need a reality check and stop complaining. Life's too short to argue about trivial things.

Ricoh will deliver! But not necesarily in your personal timing frame.
10-26-2013, 01:03 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
I see that you don't have any experience regarding product development. Hint: it takes time. Especially when it starts with a company merger
Why do you think that; because reality hurts? I have stated above that with the testimonials from Russians, we see the proofs that new development and new funding started 15-18 months after the purchase of Pentax.
That means one important cycle missed.

I believe no one would be happier than Pentax users, who are always used to little, to see a new owner acting right on time and with a plan. Because what then differentiates it from the previous owner?

But now we see, as I had my unconfirmed suspicions, that there was no plan at all even during the last year's Photokina.

10-26-2013, 01:05 AM - 1 Like   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
the pessimism here is overwhelming
Well, it's mainly just one or two hyper-gloomy individuals who also happen to be prolific FUD spreaders. Across forums too.

It is very strange to observe.
10-26-2013, 01:14 AM   #85
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Seems fitting wrt pretty much everything:

10-26-2013, 01:17 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote

Ricoh will deliver! But not necesarily in your personal timing frame.
You are missing the point. The situation is as it is, and users cannot change it. We are just analysing it and putting in perspective with other companies; only like that any assertion makes sense.

And that is why your assertion does not make sense because you, like some posters here, deny such a perspective and only observe it from the Ricoh's perspective, even denying that users exist and have a valid opinion. If you or Ricoh believe that in 21st century they can do anything and disregard users, then please think again.

The whole point in this analysis was that what sudden confession by Russians revealed: the reason people are complaining about Pentax being late is Ricoh itself, and their very late approval of the new development and new plans. They indeed came last of the entire imaging industry to decide what to do next, and started working on it. Frankly, no one was expecting that treatment from them.

Now its too late to do anything about it, but it shows how they were, and still are hiding the truth and buying time to cover an obvious neglect of their duties as a brand steward.
10-26-2013, 01:22 AM - 1 Like   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Why do you think that; because reality hurts? I have stated above that with the testimonials from Russians, we see the proofs that new development and new funding started 15-18 months after the purchase of Pentax.
That means one important cycle missed.

I believe no one would be happier than Pentax users, who are always used to little, to see a new owner acting right on time and with a plan. Because what then differentiates it from the previous owner?

But now we see, as I had my unconfirmed suspicions, that there was no plan at all even during the last year's Photokina.
Stating something and being right about it are different things. You only see what you want to see, believe what you want to believe; there's nothing to confirm your suppositions. You're making up things that were never said.
But the question is: if Pentax is so hopeless as you claim, why won't you jump ship and leave the past behind?
10-26-2013, 01:25 AM   #88
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Yes! Great news!

Coming year will be great for pentax-ricohnians. I'll begin it on my side with that K-3 and Will wait for that new 2.8 zoom to go with it.
10-26-2013, 01:32 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
That means one important cycle missed.
What cycle is missed? Do you mean that they waited, waited, waited some more and then one day started to build the K-3 in just one year?

As I see it Ricoh had to prioritize. They are a limited number of engineer and even if the founding is there, finding people with the right qualifications is not easy. They put the most resources to lift many of the K-3 features to a competing level and above. Two years for this is not too long. There is a difference between this and just make minor fixes like adding a "+" to the previous SAFOX name

Making a FF, with or without mirror, have one more aspect. New glass that matches. Add even more new tech to be developed besides the stuff that can be reused from the K-3 and 2014 is not unresonable.
10-26-2013, 01:39 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Stating something and being right about it are different things. You only see what you want to see, believe what you want to believe; there's nothing to confirm your suppositions. You're making up things that were never said.
But the question is: if Pentax is so hopeless as you claim, why won't you jump ship and leave the past behind?
I'm not presupposing anything, just using common sense where others typically misuse fanboyish zeal.

For example, according to other notion by the same Russians, 645DII completion is now postponed because FF has an absolute priority. I wonder why? Together with public confession which lists all things in workings, which begs for time and understanding, doesn't that confirm that they started way too late to fulfil their duties to customers? And are very much acknowledging it in public.

This is the real result of dishonest stories, served to us by Ricoh Imaging USA for example, and likes who trusted them. First they denied that users want FF, and then told other fairy tales about big plans, etc. All big plans are big because they are started well in time — these obviously were not, and are still far from being even agreeable, what to speak of being big in any sense.

At least now Russians confess it for all those who are concerned and care about the brand; I don't really know what that means in your case. Ricoh Imaging Romania doesn't have an opinion on this?
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