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11-07-2013, 07:09 AM   #601
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Even the Pentax zooms are relatively compact
Like the 16-50?

11-07-2013, 07:12 AM   #602
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Not going to happen with this brand.

Pentax primes are pancake or close enough (DA 35 Macro I'm looking at you, same for the 100).

The exception is really the 14mm, with a nod to the 55. Even the DA 35 (super-lightweight compared tot he competition) and the 50/1.8 (same) and the venerable screw-driven FA 50/1.4 (or even the F and FA 1.7's) are all compact compared to the competition.

This is how you design lenses when your brand is IBIS. Pentax routinely maximum wide open aperture in order to get a pancake design. Even the Pentax zooms are relatively compact, like the 18-135 and this new lens we are quibbling about. There's a 20mm f/2.8. Shame about the price.
Neither the DA f2,4/35mm nor the DA f1.8/50mm are pancakes.
But that's probably because they're little more than copies of the old Carl Zeiss Praktica M42 models…

R
11-07-2013, 07:21 AM   #603
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QuoteOriginally posted by Iberia Quote
Neither the DA f2,4/35mm nor the DA f1.8/50mm are pancakes.
But that's probably because they're little more than copies of the old Carl Zeiss Praktica M42 models…

R
Are the FA35 and the F/FA50 1.7 lenses those copies? Because people all over this forum like to say that those two DA primes are, in reality, "the same" as the FA35 and F/FA50 1.7 with updated coatings and slightly slower.

THis is despite the fact that rendering is radically different.
11-07-2013, 07:49 AM   #604
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
Let's not forget the current rumors of the "18-70 f/2.8" (corresponding to the standard range "DA Zoom" on the roadmap). If they're to be believed, it would be the polar opposite of this lens:

18-70 f/2.8: Wide zoom range, fast constant aperture, (presumably) huge
20-40 Limited: Narrow zoom range, moderate variable aperture, small

If it has WR and DC, seems to me like it's a perfectly paired offering, a lens for those who desire the Limited design philosophy of classic build and high IQ in a small package, and a lens for those who want high speed and large zoom range regardless of size. Certainly more choice than that of Canikon's current APS-C lineup.
Are there any rumors that the 18-70mm (ish) is going to be a constant f2.8?? That lens would be huge and I would be very surprised if that were the case. I would suspect that it's either a constant f4 or variable aperture.

11-07-2013, 07:53 AM   #605
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andi Lo Quote
Canon won't release a 20-40/2.8-4 that's this small because they can't. They dont have a single zoom lens this small that performs well.
I think you're underestimating Canon. They brought out a pancake 40mm that's just fine.

They choose not to bring out a small, high quality lens.
11-07-2013, 08:09 AM   #606
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QuoteOriginally posted by snake Quote
Not really, unless Pentax develops a worldwide support network, or ANYTHING in lieu of it, where they cover the costs of getting a part anywhere, used or new, from anywhere in the world to wherever a pro is shooting. We often think the "pro" aspect is only about the equipment, but it's also about the support.

Not to mention, when said war photographer comes home, everything will need to be cleaned (including supposedly sealed lenses because stuff still gets inside) and adjusted. If Pentax can do this with rapid turnaround, not their typical three months (which is also a display that they are not positioning for pro usage), then we might have something.

Since Pentax would have, realistically, only a few pros part of this program (and some claim there already is one, but it's nothing beyond a connected photographer having support), Ricoh eats the costs, it can help push Pentax into these realms.
No, methinks you try to narrow things just to have an argument, however, I just don't agree on that. Professional use, been used in a professional environment does not equal solely your description of the said war photographer. There are many fields in science and research who use photographic equipment professionally, without the alleged surrounding conditions. There is no difference if my 3000,-€ FF-Nikon fails up in the air or my K-3 for half the price (I might just get two of the latter for the same budget).
I also don't think I can expect any support in the middle of Mongolia on a expedition. Neither from Pentax/Ricoh, nor any other manufacturer. It's a matter of backup solutions, a manual MX and a MF-lens, fine with that... has been done for many years just like that.

Olympus used to be the preferred brand in some of these fields because of their support and connectivity f.e. with microscopes and many people learned the virtues of this system on job and used the cameras also i their private life. Pentax was the other one with the LX and they still have a good standing being featured in catalogs for forestry supply etc., the K-50 is a solid and capable "low" cost tool and in these cases it's not about waiting for repair but just buying two of them for the same budget as other manufacturers would charge you for basic environmental sealing.

That's also one of the virtues of the modular Ricoh systems, the lensors are perfect to calibrate thus useful for professional photogrammetrical purposes.

Too small niche? The value is not least in the brand recognition...
11-07-2013, 08:28 AM   #607
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Not going to happen with this brand.

Pentax primes are pancake or close enough (DA 35 Macro I'm looking at you, same for the 100).

The exception is really the 14mm, with a nod to the 55. Even the DA 35 (super-lightweight compared tot he competition) and the 50/1.8 (same) and the venerable screw-driven FA 50/1.4 (or even the F and FA 1.7's) are all compact compared to the competition.

This is how you design lenses when your brand is IBIS. Pentax routinely maximum wide open aperture in order to get a pancake design. Even the Pentax zooms are relatively compact, like the 18-135 and this new lens we are quibbling about. There's a 20mm f/2.8. Shame about the price.
Putting out a 24/2 is just a matter of resources. I think Pentax would like to have a 24/2 to go with the 55/100/200/300 set of fast WR primes that they have released. The issue is that Pentax is putting out a lot of content (I hope) and it's a lower priority.
11-07-2013, 08:35 AM   #608
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I think you're underestimating Canon. They brought out a pancake 40mm that's just fine.

They choose not to bring out a small, high quality lens.
I said they won't, I'm sure they could do it though. Same case with Pentax, they can make a 24/2, but they chose not to (as shown by this lens and DA 21)

I really like Canon glass as well, but they're not going to exactly start a line of compact L Limited lenses at this point of the game.

11-07-2013, 09:00 AM   #609
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gray Quote
I do wonder about the DA limited "myth" that needs to be deflated every now and again. There's little doubt that Ricoh is trying to position these lenses as premium lenses with corresponding premium prices that have little relation to manufacturing costs. I would not at all be surprised to learn this lens costs less than $250 to manufacture.
With hand-machined aluminum?
11-07-2013, 09:29 AM   #610
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andi Lo Quote
I said they won't, I'm sure they could do it though
Yup, I agree. I was confused because you said 'they won't... because they can't'.
11-07-2013, 09:31 AM   #611
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QuoteOriginally posted by Iberia Quote
In the film days one would have a large selection of primes: 15mm, 16mm, 20mm, 24mm, fast and not so fast 28mm, 28mm PC, fast and not so fast 35mm, 35mm PC, 45mm, fast and not so fast 50mm, 50 or 60mm MACRO, fast and not so fast 85mm, 100mm, 100mm MACRO, 135mm, etc.

Nowadays Pentax offers the following DA focals: 22,5mm, gap, slow 31,5mm, gap, fast and not so fast 52,5mm, 52,5mm MACRO, 60mm, 75mm, fast 82,5mm, fast and not so fast 105mm, gap, 150mm MACRO, etc.
And some full frame legacy FA lenses: fast 46,5mm LTD, fast 52,5mm, fast 64,5mm LTD, fast 115,mm LTD.

I understand if Ricœntax chooses not to make a PC lens and not to provide fast and not so fast versions of the 24mm, the 28mm, the 35mm…but these lenses 3 lenses are, in my view, very important primes that cannot be missing from a lineup (tehy don't have to be Limiteds).

On the zoom side I think we could really use a f4/50-135mm (75-202,5mm equiv.) and a f4/17-55mm (25,5-82,5mm equiv.); both lenses can be made small, reasonably light and still provide high performance.

As a side note, fixed aperture is important for those of us who shoot in manual mode.

R
There is no such thing as a "DA focal"; and you didn't explained why it's important to have those lenses before the "awkward" ones. I'm counting the Limiteds (including the FAs) in the "awkward" category, since they don't have boring focal lengths and apertures.

Those gaps are between 15 and 21mm, 21mm to 31mm and 77mm to 100mm, all covered by zooms.

By the way, there's a 17-70 f/4.
11-07-2013, 10:23 AM   #612
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QuoteOriginally posted by Iberia Quote
In the film days one would have a large selection of primes: 15mm, 16mm, 20mm, 24mm, fast and not so fast 28mm, 28mm PC, fast and not so fast 35mm, 35mm PC, 45mm, fast and not so fast 50mm, 50 or 60mm MACRO, fast and not so fast 85mm, 100mm, 100mm MACRO, 135mm, etc. Nowadays Pentax offers the following DA focals: 22,5mm, gap, slow 31,5mm, gap, fast and not so fast 52,5mm, 52,5mm MACRO, 60mm, 75mm, fast 82,5mm, fast and not so fast 105mm, gap, 150mm MACRO, etc. And some full frame legacy FA lenses: fast 46,5mm LTD, fast 52,5mm, fast 64,5mm LTD, fast 115,mm LTD.
You can't compare what was done in the "film days" to what is done now. Back in the 70s and 80s, Pentax could provide a complete prime lineup because (1) they had a large user base, and (2) zoom lenses weren't very good and many photographers used primes. In the mid-80s, with the introduction of AF tech, Pentax's user base shrunk dramatically, while at the same time we saw a migration from primes to zooms. It no longer made economic sense for Pentax to maintain a complete prime lineup. Indeed, when the A versions of Pentax's 35mm lenses went out of production in 1989, Pentax never bothered to manufacture a replacement until 1999, when the FA 35 was released.

Other than Nikon and Canon, no camera manufacturer can afford maintain lens lineups comparable to what we had in the film days. It's just not economically possible. Holes in the lineup can be filled with either 3rd party glass or legacy glass. The FA* 24, despite all the silly nonsense one hears from the gearhead measurbating sites, is one of the best lenses Pentax ever made. And there are three copies of the lens over at keh.com.

I doubt we'll see any more DA primes. The holes in the line-up at 24 and 135 will remain open until they're (possibly) filled by DFA primes after the introduction of a Pentax FF about a year from now.
11-07-2013, 10:42 AM   #613
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Yup, I agree. I was confused because you said 'they won't... because they can't'.
Not nicely worded on my part Thanks for pointing it out.
11-07-2013, 11:20 AM   #614
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
No, methinks you try to narrow things just to have an argument, however, I just don't agree on that. Professional use, been used in a professional environment does not equal solely your description of the said war photographer. There are many fields in science and research who use photographic equipment professionally, without the alleged surrounding conditions. There is no difference if my 3000,-€ FF-Nikon fails up in the air or my K-3 for half the price (I might just get two of the latter for the same budget).
I also don't think I can expect any support in the middle of Mongolia on a expedition. Neither from Pentax/Ricoh, nor any other manufacturer. It's a matter of backup solutions, a manual MX and a MF-lens, fine with that... has been done for many years just like that.

Olympus used to be the preferred brand in some of these fields because of their support and connectivity f.e. with microscopes and many people learned the virtues of this system on job and used the cameras also i their private life. Pentax was the other one with the LX and they still have a good standing being featured in catalogs for forestry supply etc., the K-50 is a solid and capable "low" cost tool and in these cases it's not about waiting for repair but just buying two of them for the same budget as other manufacturers would charge you for basic environmental sealing.

That's also one of the virtues of the modular Ricoh systems, the lensors are perfect to calibrate thus useful for professional photogrammetrical purposes.

Too small niche? The value is not least in the brand recognition...
I actually photograph in the medical and research field for two universities. What would you like to know, beyond the fact that we're using the 5DII in both, microscopes are Zeiss and Olympus?

The 5Ds (and they have simple Rebels in most departments) are all under pro/institutional coverage. We keep different ones for the lab use and others for general use. We also have one that is specifically used by myself to document aborted and stillborn fetuses before and after autopsy.

So what point do you need to make?
11-07-2013, 11:36 AM   #615
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Honestly, all the "cons" about this lens will be gone if they price the lens more reasonably and be less greedy.

I'm afraid the day of PENTAX being the "best for the buck", "best value" is over.
(you want cheap one? sure, we'll give you plastic wonder 35mm and 50mm...)

Love the design, never mind the odd focal length (it's PENTAX, we are used to odd focal length), but please price it right.

Like the Nikon Df, all the praise before they announce the price, after the price announcement, is all negative comments about the camera.

...
I started to miss the PENTAX that is small but with soul company.
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