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01-06-2014, 02:36 PM   #436
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If Canon put 1D specs in the 6D, who would buy the 1D?

No joke. I just was curious why you might not consider the 6D in favor of say the 5DIII, what about the 6D didn't meet par for you. I really don't know that camera very well, never considered it as I don't like Canon's UI or sensor. If I was a Canon guy I would buy it if I didn't have a 5DIII.


My observation is, recently, it seems like the 'good' stuff is usually put in pro level first (D3/1D), then pro/amateur FF (D800/5D) then amateur FF (D600/6D). So... the D600 is roughly as good sensor wise as the D3 (it's actually probably better IMO) but the D600 came out a couple of years later, is much less expensive, is a smaller/lighter body for better or worse, and is somewhat de-contented otherwise.


There hasn't been a recent pro-APS-C Canon since ~2009? Heck the 7-D can't continue much longer. I'd guess the D300 line is dead, in favor of the improved D7100, but who knows...?

01-06-2014, 06:22 PM   #437
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Sigma/Tamron/Tokina will be there to take up the slack, then.

And if Canon doesn't sell a cheap FF then Nikon (or Pentax) will.

Sensor prices always come down. Of course, by definition FF sensors can't get smaller, so they won't go to exponentially-cheap as quickly... but people here a couple of years ago were making claims that FF would not be in K-5 launch territory (then $1600 or $1700).

Who knows? Maybe right now the industry wags saying 'overproduction' will be seen as true. Maybe instead (older) FF will hit $1k. It's not out of the realm of possibility... Canon 6D was intro'd at $1900, $200 more than the K-5... and I think the K-5 was selling for $650 or so at it's cheapest. Heck right now the K-5II is less than $800.
Sony have changed the game for FF with the A7 series and if the others don't follow suit they will be left behind IMO. As I've stated, with boring regularly over the past couple of years, Pentax could easily reboot the 645D as a MkII but mirrorless and about the size of a D800. Not doing this is probably risking failure as it would be another game changer that would bring MF into line physically with FF as long as adapters and new lenses were released at the same time.
01-06-2014, 06:32 PM   #438
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Sony have changed the game for FF with the A7 series and if the others don't follow suit they will be left behind IMO. As I've stated, with boring regularly over the past couple of years, Pentax could easily reboot the 645D as a MkII but mirrorless and about the size of a D800. Not doing this is probably risking failure as it would be another game changer that would bring MF into line physically with FF as long as adapters and new lenses were released at the same time.
That would be pretty sweet, but would also give away one of the best advantages of the 645 (huge viewfinder) for another big advantage (short registration distance) and another big advantage (FF size with 1.7 (645D) to 2.7 (645N) times bigger sensor). Of course you could maintain backwards compatibility by maintaining a 'macro' adapter - same diameter, same location of screwdrive, etc.

Worth it? I dunno. If it was $3k I'd be all in. Maybe at $4k, although I'd probably wait. $4k seems unlikely.
01-06-2014, 06:34 PM   #439
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Sony have changed the game for FF with the A7 series and if the others don't follow suit they will be left behind IMO.
I don't want to shoot FF lenses manual with an adapter on a NEX in a body that looks like a small SLR any more than I wanted to shoot FF lenses manual with an adapter on a NEX. Sony has changed nothing.

01-06-2014, 06:36 PM   #440
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I don't want to shoot FF lenses manual with an adapter on a NEX in a body that looks like a small SLR any more than I wanted to shoot FF lenses manual with an adapter on a NEX. Sony has changed nothing.
I know a couple of A7r owners who'd disagree with that statement.
01-06-2014, 06:38 PM   #441
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I'm sure you do. I still have no use for an A7r or a NEX 7 (or any of the others). Although OLED EVF's may eventually come close.

My point is no one is going to be left behind just because Sony is hot this year. There's room for all those A7r shooters and all the traditional shooters and all the Pro-Grade APSc shooters CaNikon has left out of their game. I buy a body every 5 or 6 years. Lenses are where I spend money anyway.

What I wouldn't want to be today is a Product Manager for compacts at a company whose revenue stream is dependent on that market segment.

Last edited by monochrome; 01-06-2014 at 06:47 PM.
01-06-2014, 06:55 PM   #442
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5 years ought to just about do it for getting the tech spec's of MILC EVF's and shutters up to DSLR standards. The trick is in creating the market and developing it before your opposition gets a foothold. From my experience in the music industry I can say unequivocally that people will go along for the ride if they see it as the future.
01-06-2014, 07:19 PM   #443
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Sony's future hinges on whether they can make money in electronics products as a whole. Now Sony as a group is barely flowing above the water with the help of a financial sector in the same group. Without finance, they'd be in a very precarious state. They lost money even in digital camera sector in the second quarter of 2013 due to the heavy loss in video camera and P&S. It doesn't matter whether Sony has changed the game with the A7/r or not if loss in electronics sector forces them to abandon the entire camera business, including coveted mirrorless camera, which has been struggling in US and Europe but performing fairly in Japan, a nation whose population has been declining very rapidly.

01-06-2014, 07:39 PM   #444
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
That's fine, but clearly you don't get something for nothing. If Canon put 1D specs in the 6D, who would buy the 1D? I understand that fact and don't really see cut rate full frame as being the answer to "all of photography's woes" despite some people's insistence to the contrary.
The other thing here, is that those high performance components in the 1D cost more. I don't really believe camera makers deliberately cripple their cameras. I do think they develop cheaper less capable components that enable them to compete at a lower price. If they could actually produce the high performance components at a cheaper price then you might have a case. But the price thing is definitely exponential. If the price of the actual component is $200 more for the high performance item, because of lower volume etc. that could add $500 to a $1000 to the price. As you go higher end, you pay more for less. IS that because they are trying to cripple the cheaper cameras, or is it because the high end cameras actually cost a lot more to make and to sell? I've never seen a convincing case either way. I've seen lots of suggestions as to how it might be, but nothing I'd consider to be definitive.

Ask any company exec, and I'm sure they say, to a man (or woman) that they can't sell their best technology at bargain basement prices, and that when they use less than their best technology, it's so some of their products are more affordable.

There was a guy on here recently talking about mostly shooting family gatherings etc., indoors in existing light. If that's most of what you do, maybe a 6D or 610 is a great camera for you. Maybe that lower noise at higher ISO capability is what you really need in a camera. There is enough overlap in systems, that something like that could be the deciding factor. It's not like there's a camera out there I can't find a reason to use. You look at it's abilities, and you find the one that does what you do 80% of the time, is acceptable at what you do 18% of the time, and maybe doesn't do what you need 2% of the time. You'd think with all the formats, sizes configurations and styles of cameras, anyone should be able to find something that works. It might even be a 6D, even though I wouldn't carry it with me if you gave me one. I'm sure there are 6D owners out there, that are happy as witches in a broom factory, and wouldn't take my K-3 if it was offered. The only question left un-answered would be which of us had the biggest sneer when we pulled our hand away from the offensive camera.
01-06-2014, 07:45 PM   #445
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
5 years ought to just about do it for getting the tech spec's of MILC EVF's and shutters up to DSLR standards. The trick is in creating the market and developing it before your opposition gets a foothold. From my experience in the music industry I can say unequivocally that people will go along for the ride if they see it as the future.
5 years is forever. Beta is still a better technology but where is it? Second-movers have historically taken advantage of Sony's arrogance and I'm not sure they've learned the lesson even now. But there's still room - no one is going out of the industry because of he A7r.
01-07-2014, 02:00 AM   #446
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Sony have changed the game for FF with the A7 series and if the others don't follow suit they will be left behind IMO.
Changed what game? For now, the only thing Sony did is make sure there would be a very high interest in its A7/A7R cam which is very nice but which isn't bringing much money if not a complete loss leader.
As usual, Sony is buying marketshare. But they won't make much if at all money.
Where can this lead them to if not to problems?
01-07-2014, 02:46 AM   #447
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Changed what game? For now, the only thing Sony did is make sure there would be a very high interest in its A7/A7R cam which is very nice but which isn't bringing much money if not a complete loss leader.
As usual, Sony is buying marketshare. But they won't make much if at all money.
Where can this lead them to if not to problems?
Sony now has a giant headstart. The ones that bought the A7/A7r are out there, showing off the stuff to their peers. I've never had so many people interested in it. They all want to see first hand how well it works before they go for it. And I've never seen people so quickly convinced. It's so well built, feels so solid and it's so compact and convenient. And of course the lens in front of it helps it a lot too.

Of course nobody jumps without informing theirselves about the only 2,5 month old system first. (Except for me.) It's expensive enough to want to at least see some good reviews too. Preferably from users that have used it for over three months.
01-07-2014, 03:02 AM   #448
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I agree Clavius but if Sony can't get customers to shell out the money for Sony lenses, it doesn't bring much (in financial terms of course) and Sony IS in trouble.
5000 more have to go I learned a couple days ago (tough mostly older workers not being replaced).
01-07-2014, 04:47 AM   #449
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I agree Clavius but if Sony can't get customers to shell out the money for Sony lenses, it doesn't bring much (in financial terms of course) and Sony IS in trouble.
5000 more have to go I learned a couple days ago (tough mostly older workers not being replaced).
This is it. From Sony's perspective, unless the A7 sells Sony lenses (alpha or e mount, doesn't matter), it is a failure. And as of right now, seems like a good chunk of folks are buying them to mount other brand's glass on.

I guess the nice thing is that Sony is an electronics company trying to do photography and the end result is often clunky. If they were the opposite, Nikon and Canon would be going into hiding right now.
01-07-2014, 06:03 AM   #450
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I agree Clavius but if Sony can't get customers to shell out the money for Sony lenses, it doesn't bring much (in financial terms of course) and Sony IS in trouble.
5000 more have to go I learned a couple days ago (tough mostly older workers not being replaced).
1. The entire FE system is only a mere 2,5 months old.

2. There is only one lens available to order right now, correct? (Sony FE 35mm) (It's a spectacular lens!)

3. Then Pentax would be in the same kind of trouble. The typical sitting-on-a-bunch-of-legacy-glass-Pentaxian doesn't generate much new lens sales either. Pentax themselves already admitted the lens business isn't very interesting. (Interview leading up to photocina 2010 I think? Does anybody else remember that?)
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