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12-21-2013, 03:01 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
Yada yada. FF: maybe, perhaps, sometimes... yada yada. And those in the FFaith believe it's just around the corner. Like always.

Nope. I bet if Hoya earlier or Ricoh now was really willing, the mythical FF Pentax would've been out long time ago. But it seems that the camera business - as many other businesses - is struggling and the company is keeping a keen eye on the market trying to figure whether releasing a FF camera would be benefactory or the last nail in the coffin. It seems NONE of the camera companies is doing very well in today's economy.

Having said that, I have to say that I admire the boldness of Sony's moves during the last years. The relatively miniscule NEX family with class leading APS-C sensors, the first FF mirrorless camera (the videocamera, ignoring earlier Leicas) and now the smoking HOT and relatively cheap A7 and A7R! Don't know if they're making any money, but kudos for bringing these models and really stirring the market!

But if FF really is important to somebody here, switch brands already. The FF Pentax just isn't going to happen in any reasonable time scale. Just my gut feeling.
I understand that's a popular position. However, it's rather revealing to read DPR's review of the Nikon Df where it's stated the Df was in development for four years. That's a long time considering the sensor was already in use by Nikon and the AF system is borrowed from the D600/610.

12-21-2013, 03:19 PM - 3 Likes   #47
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I was just brushing up on the Japanese while watching the "Shogun".
Then after this interview, everything stated made so much sense. I now understand it all.

For example, from the first question:
"How about FF? When is it going to be launched?" ...

... which a reporter poses in hope of a straight answer to amuse their readers, Mr Murano answers in fact this:

"Camera business we are now is currently going through a difficult time. Everyone suffers and everyone would like to know what is the winning formula to succeed in this struggle.

Some companies try the old-fashioned approaches by showing off the size of their systems and cameras. Some don't know what will work at all, but are afraid, and therefore throw fireballs across different markets and various concepts, fighting invisible enemy. Others will advance apparently slowly and stick to only one line of escape, while moving quicker to defend themselves easier.

Overall, the prosperity of one player will very much depend on the failure, and weaknesses of another.

Thus any advancement of our position is based on various deceptions. When we are able to hit the fast straight ball, we must seem unable. When using our premium established products to advance, we must appear otherwise inactive. When we are near accomplishing something important, we must make everyone believe we are far away. When far away, we must make everyone believe we are near.

We have discovered some big weaknesses in the lines of our competitors. But we cannot tell you more information. Hence we shall target all that our competitors do not defend. And we shall be in defence of all that our competitors know not how, or what, to attack. In short, knowing the competitor enables you to take the offensive; knowing yourself enables you to stand on the defensive.

In the meantime, we are not forgetting our loyal customers, users dedicated to current Pentax systems and lenses. We are together in this struggle, and this opportunity, and we most importantly would like not to disappoint them. We are giving them something special no one else can."

Last edited by Uluru; 12-21-2013 at 04:53 PM.
12-21-2013, 03:38 PM - 1 Like   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I was just brushing up on the Japanese while watching the "Shogun".
Then after this interview, everything stated made so much sense. I now understand it all.

For example, from the first question:
"How about FF? When is it going to be launched?" ...

... which a reporter poses in hope of a straight answer to amuse their readers, Mr Murano answers in fact this:

"Camera business we are now is currently going through a difficult time. Everyone suffers and everyone would like to know what is the winning formula to succeed in this struggle.

Some companies try the old-fashioned approaches by showing off the size of their systems and cameras. Some don't know what will work at all, but are afraid, and therefore throw fireballs across different markets and various concepts, fighting invisible enemy. Others will advance slowly and stick to only one line of escape, while moving quicker to defend themselves easier.

Overall, the prosperity of one player will very much depend on the failure, and weaknesses of another.

Thus any advancement of our position is based on various deceptions. When we are able to hit the fast straight ball, we must seem unable. When using our premium established products to advance, we must appear otherwise inactive. When we are near accomplishing something important, we must make everyone believe we are far away. When far away, we must make everyone believe we are near.

We have discovered some big weaknesses in the lines of our competitors. But we cannot tell you more information. Hence we shall target all that our competitors do not defend. And we shall be in defence of all that our competitors not know how, or what, to attack. In short, knowing the competitor enables you to take the offensive; knowing yourself enables you to stand on the defensive.

In the meantime, we are not forgetting our loyal customers, users dedicated to current Pentax systems and lenses. We are together in this struggle, and this opportunity, and we most importantly would like not to disappoint them. We are giving them something special no one else can."
If that is an accurate translation I defy anyone to remain pessimistic about Ricoh's commitment to Pentax.

If you made that up, you are an evil genius.
12-21-2013, 06:57 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gray Quote
Isn't Pentax full frame inevitable because the K-mount is a full frame mount? Isn't Pentax APS-C merely a historical compromise based on the fact that full frame sensors were not up to scratch when Pentax designed their first generation of digital cameras?

Personally I don't like the size and cost of the 645 system.

But I would snap up a K-3 sized and spec'd Pentax full frame dSLR with the KAF2 & KAF3 mount priced under $2,000 - that would be their "straight ball to dead center". (A new FF mount or mirrorless would be a "breaking ball" in the context I think).

I'm prepared to wait a year or two because I so enjoy photographing with my K-5II.

Thanks for the translation, leonsroar.
I agree with all said here. I am happy with my k5 iis. There are certain things that aps-c just can't do as well as a full frame no matter what. Better difference in depth of field (no, I am not saying 'greater' DOF) and bigger pixels make for less noise, and 24 mp on a FF are much bigger than 24mp on aps-c. That is why the k3 is putting up less favorable noise results than the k5/ii/iis.. more mp generally equals more noise. I am actually glad that the indication is to go the slr route vs mirror less. Pentax does best with slr, leave the mirrorless to Sony.

12-21-2013, 07:47 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by leonsroar Quote
As a small-sized manufacturer, it is challenging to maintain multiple mounts.
Still small! Ricoh probably saves money on its photo-department.

QuoteOriginally posted by leonsroar Quote
We will have to try on collaborating with others for the sake of customer and environment.
?!
12-21-2013, 07:58 PM   #51
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Collaborating means co-developing shutters with Seiko or (Toshiba?), processors with Fujitsu, of course sensors with Sony, perhaps lens designs with Tamron, and licensing all manner of manufacturing processes rather than inventing new and charging more for a camera. For instance, the SMC coating process was at least partly licensed by every single lens manufacturer except Leica at one time or another. It can go both ways. Canon is, for instance, apparently is much more self-reliant. Nikon is in between.

Saves money and reduces environmental footprint of manufacturing. Ricoh is a very "green" conscious company, like Subaru. Some of Ricoh's plants are "zero-waste" certified like Subaru's Muncie, IN plant.
12-21-2013, 10:04 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by NewTake Quote
I agree with all said here. I am happy with my k5 iis. There are certain things that aps-c just can't do as well as a full frame no matter what. Better difference in depth of field (no, I am not saying 'greater' DOF) and bigger pixels make for less noise, and 24 mp on a FF are much bigger than 24mp on aps-c. That is why the k3 is putting up less favorable noise results than the k5/ii/iis.
This is quite funny.
I'll resample a K-3's 24MP image to the 16MP, erase all EXIF data and you won't have a clue whether it's taken with the K-3 or the K5IIs.
Leave DXO lab numbers to computers, not human eyes. K-3 tops K5IIs in just everything, and the output of its sensor can be tamed to match all imaging demands. If one knows not how to do it, then it's better spend some time educating, rather than believing in invisible statements.

The only "problem" K-3 has is the size of its RAW files — and therefore I find it justifiable that there is a 16MP camera with K-3's tech — not because the old sensor is "better", but only for the sake of quicker, disk-space and processor-time conscious work.
12-21-2013, 11:07 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by leonsroar Quote
Hello, I just read an interesting interview article from Digital Camera Magazine (in Japanese) and tried to translate to repay my gratitude to my current Q7 project in market place.
Thanks a lot for the translation!

QuoteOriginally posted by leonsroar Quote
It is a bit disappointing for me as I was expecting to see a FF model to be launched sometime next year and it doesn’t seem to be actualized upon reading this…
I think you are reading too much in the inevitable need for an official statement to be vague.

I believe that "We are going to boldly challenge the FF market." is remarkably unambiguous.

Anyone watching recent developments should come to the conclusion that if you want to continue making good money with DSLRs that you need to have an FF offering. Phone cameras have annihilated the small compact camera market and entry level DSLRs are now fighting price wars more than ever. APS-C flagship DSLRs receive pressure from FF budget cameras (Canon 6D, Nikon D600), so really if Ricoh wants to boldly challenge the FF market they'd rather do it sooner than later.

On the other hand Ricoh has demonstrated that they rather delay a product than to launch it before they are happy with it. So if they encounter any bumps in their FF development road, it may delay the introduction of their first FF offering(s). I'm including the plural because I'm starting to think they will throw both a straight and a curve ball at us.

BTW, the analogy to the HiFi industry with manufacturers competing for power is broken. Increasing power in audio equipment much more often than not implies a compromise on quality. There is no such issue with APS-C vs FF. The D800's FF sensor is basically the K-5's APS-C sensor, just bigger (and hence better); no compromise needed. If 36MP files are considered too large, you can use the same technology for an FF 24MP sensor (or whatever).

It is also does not makes sense that Murano believes that the K-3 "never falls behind FF even after there have been a lot of comparisons between APS-C & FF. " I cannot believe he truly believes that. Bigger sensors (assuming everything else being equal) give you a superset of what smaller sensors give you. And the superset is real, i.e., there are advantages (and no disadvantages). A larger sensor can even compensate for a bit worse sensor (or lens) performance.

The K-3 is a fantastic camera and is more than sufficient for many, many people. That does not imply, however, that it doesn't make sense to stick an FF sensor into a K-3 body. It does make sense! While we are waiting for this -- or something similar -- to happen, our APS-C cameras are great tools and will tide us over easily.

12-21-2013, 11:09 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by NewTake Quote
That is why the k3 is putting up less favorable noise results than the k5/ii/iis.. more mp generally equals more noise.
No, more MP do not equal more noise.

Please read the respective DxOMark article on the subject.
12-22-2013, 08:03 AM   #55
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Honestly... simply frustrating.

We are like orphans...

If someone feels the need or the whish of a FF body... now we can get one with just the price of a good star lens...

enought of "waiting"... Pentax is no more a great mainstream producer... and even if Ricoh or Microsoft or Samsung will buy it, it will never be again the old one.

Time is changing, pentax users... and if you want to evolve with it, let's enjoy the excellent apsc pentax offer without crying, or change gear without crying for the money loss and the "life collecting pentax gear". Afeter the K-5 half-revolution, we all waited too much, and what we get is the k-3, it is out there, that's it, if it's ok for your needs and desires, take it someday, or it's the perfect moment to choose a change right now...

Nikon d700... d610... Canon 6D or 5dMarkII... sell your pentax gear and get it with a good zoom or some good fixes! Or keep your pentax stuff and use it on a good K5II-s or a very good k-3.

If only k-3 has a professional AF sistem, I'll have no doubt to stay... but right now I need a better AF and I'm going to move, keeping the k-5 and just a pair of glass for "free time" light shot.
12-22-2013, 08:27 AM   #56
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Interview with Chief Sales & Marketing Officer / Ricoh Imaging Japan

Pentax needs to improve SDM and AF first. Until then Canikon users will not take a Pentax FF camera seriously.

As I understand it, expanding into FF will require a percentage of Canikon users to switch. And Pentax has some glaring holes to fix between missing glass and the issues already mentioned.

It's just not as simple as coming out with a new cam. Think about it from a strategic perspective.

Hopefully with Ricoh's engineering expertise AF and SDM can be overhauled in the short term.
12-22-2013, 08:46 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by krebsy75 Quote
Pentax needs to improve SDM and AF first. Until then Canikon users will not take a Pentax FF camera seriously.

As I understand it, expanding into FF will require a percentage of Canikon users to switch. And Pentax has some glaring holes to fix between missing glass and the issues already mentioned.

It's just not as simple as coming out with a new cam. Think about it from a strategic perspective.

Hopefully with Ricoh's engineering expertise AF and SDM can be overhauled in the short term.
I agree with you, but I have to say:

- that SDM is a bad Technology, seems to work only on fixed focal lens or bigger one. Too many issue, many total failures, slow and sometime miss the focus, expecially on zooms (16-50 is dramatic, 50-135 just a bit less but it's even worse, because it's a very very bad on such a masterpiece of rendition... and the 17-70 problems is also critical, because it's a very good zoom, the one every one should consider to buy. Only 60-250 seems to work good, but slow). The DC is a good

- that for pro-users Pentax has to improve even the customer care and tecnical assistance... or it will be just a "toy" FF, not for workers, they can't wait 3 month to get back and repaired their everyday stuff frome esotic countries.

- that if pentax has not a pro gear like FF sistem to put in the hands of a famous ph., no low-consciousness customers may think it's a really good producer, and so not will be pushed to buy it instead of others famouse one... Pentax neither do a viral marketing to catch the attention of common poeple.... if you want to develop a modern AF, more and better lenses, professional accessories, etc. etc. you have to find the money to do it, and if you don't invest in marketing, you'll never get it.... 8 years and we still have an OBSOLETE AF MODULE, Amateur flash sistem, a lens line-up slow and very "strange"... etc. etc. ...Pentax is still going on for the old useres who want to keep working the K stuff they already have and so don't want to move to onother sistem... Q7 or k01 are non-sense innovation, STOP WASTING MONEY IN SUCH A RIDICOLOUS WAY, pleas... improve AF seriously and put DC in every lens in the place of SDM... I'm worried that Ricoh is on the same marketing mood of pentax digital era... while Olympus and Fuji are reinventing themselves in the way I think is working. FF is not the only issue with P.

Last edited by pesao; 12-22-2013 at 09:10 AM.
12-22-2013, 09:05 AM   #58
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Interview with Chief Sales & Marketing Officer / Ricoh Imaging Japan

I forgot about the service issue. How could I forget that my K-5IIs took two months to fix???

Being a Pentax fan requires LOTS of patience. Hang in there, my friends. Ricoh without a doubt has a plan.
12-22-2013, 09:05 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by krebsy75 Quote
Pentax needs to improve SDM and AF first. Until then Canikon users will not take a Pentax FF camera seriously.

As I understand it, expanding into FF will require a percentage of Canikon users to switch. And Pentax has some glaring holes to fix between missing glass and the issues already mentioned.

It's just not as simple as coming out with a new cam. Think about it from a strategic perspective.

Hopefully with Ricoh's engineering expertise AF and SDM can be overhauled in the short term.
You've never used the AF on a K-3 have you? ? Given that Pentax has left Canon in the dust in terms of IQ, DR, and now resolution, I suspect the only area left that Canon really excels at is Marketing. There are already lots of reason so choose Pentax over Canon. I don't think Pentax is yet on a mission to take away every Canon customers, and I'm guessing the guys using the big expensive fast focusing lenses will the last Pentax is interested in. Canon makes the best stuff that most people can't afford. But that's hardly a good place to take your marketing strategy.
12-22-2013, 09:09 AM   #60
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I haven't used the AF in the K-3. Having said that, most users report that it's slightly evolutionary as opposed to... Most seem to think that smaller AF points represent the biggest improvement.

SDM slows AF down quite a bit. So that remains a big part of the problem.
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