[RobA_Oz]

If people think that MF sensor is equal to FF sensor quality...

An unfair fight? 35mm vs Medium Format: Nikon D800E and the Leica S2-P ? Ming Thein | Photographer

Pentax 645D Review: Initial Test

MF is in a different league than FF. Much more so than FF from crop. This is because of the amount of magnification and the fact that digital sensors will always have aliasing. if you are judging by some spec sheet, you cant see the difference...Now imagine a even better sensor. Look, I would like a FF pentax camera, but there is no reason to trash MF...saying that FF is the equivalent of MF is ignorance.

Thanks for sharing the links. I knew the D800 was a bit of a monster, but until I read the Ming Thein article, I hadn't realised how similar the D800 and S2 were in physical size. If Pentax can do a FF35 in about the body size of the K-3, they must surely have a useful point of differentiation for marketing.

[jsherman999]

If people think that MF sensor is equal to FF sensor quality...

An unfair fight? 35mm vs Medium Format: Nikon D800E and the Leica S2-P ? Ming Thein | Photographer

I've seen that article, and it's eye opening - in that it shows the $25,000 Leica S2 being barely better in IQ, in some circumstances, than the $3000 D800E. (Let's not get into the Leica lens costs! )

Remember - this is not a $3000 (or $2700, $2000, $1600) vs. $1200 camera comparison, as a lot of FF vs aps-c comparisons are - it's $25,000 vs. $3000 - without even factoring in the break-bank lenses.

Also, remember - the gist of the argument isn't "Is MF marginally better in IQ," it's "Where should Pentax focus it's efforts". A big Ricoh MF initiative is just about as useful to 99% of Pentaxians as a big Nikon FF initiative, because it's a different mount.

[jsherman999]

...

I think your post should have better been addressed to Ricoh corporation. I personally don't pretend or care to make decisions for them. I decide at any particular time what my photographic needs are and then go buy that product irregardless of mfr. Its Ricoh job to worry about their K-mount and what happens to it.

It's in every forum member's interest, every "Pentax" shooter's interest, what happens to K-mount.

If Ricoh moves away from K-mount, they're no longer even "Pentax", they become just some other company no different to us than Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Oly. There's no real reason for any of us to stay with Pentax for the next upgrade cycle if they ditch K-mount.

My (and other's) arguments for FF aren't entirely based on "FF is better", they're based on "FF is necessary if our company is going to be able to keep selling K-mount." If you're an aps-c shooter only and intend to stay that way, you should still hope for a FF offerring, because it strengthens your mount.

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[normhead]

I've seen that article, and it's eye opening - in that it shows the $25,000 Leica S2 being barely better in IQ, in some circumstances, than the $3000 D800E. (Let's not get into the Leica lens costs! )

Remember - this is not a $3000 (or $2700, $2000, $1600) vs. $1200 camera comparison, as a lot of FF vs aps-c comparisons are - it's $25,000 vs. $3000 - without even factoring in the break-bank lenses.

Also, remember - the gist of the argument isn't "Is MF marginally better in IQ," it's "Where should Pentax focus it's efforts". A big MF initiative is just about as useful to 99% of Pentaxians as a big Nikon FF initiative, because it's a different mount.

But then, I'm starting to see, the D800e and K-5 sensors as sort of "home run" sensors, sensors that had no right to be as good as they were. The kind of camera you buy and then use for 20 years, because what's coming next doesn't have the same impact. MF probably has more growth room.

[monochrome]

If you're an aps-c shooter only and intend to stay that way, you should still hope for a FF offerring, because it strengthens your mount.

I have heard it said that Ricoh doesn't care what is wrapped around the K-mount. They only care how many K-mounts they sell. K-mount sales lead to lens sales, and accessories and eventually to more K-mount sales.

• Do colors sell more K-mounts?
  • Figure out how to sell K50's in colors, even Build-to-Order
• Does a stripped-down K500 for US and Europe sell more K-mounts?
  • Disable something and price it lower
• Does a 4-body offering sell more K-mounts?
  • Sell K600, K50, K5II and K3 all together now
• Would a FF sell more K-mounts?
  • I guess they still don't know for sure

[jsherman999]

But then, I'm starting to see, the D800e and K-5 sensors as sort of "home run" sensors, sensors that had no right to be as good as they were. The kind of camera you buy and then use for 20 years, because what's coming next doesn't have the same impact. MF probably has more growth room.

If some company decides that they want to (somehow) start selling MF cameras near the $5000 level or under, and can convince a Sony Semiconductor (or Aptina, etc,) to buy in - then we're talking. But until then, it almost doesn't matter because they're priced in a tier that's restricted to advanced commercial uses and wealthy hobbyists. That's a tiny market, much, much tinier than enthusiast FF, and always will be. Pentax can't break in without offering a steeply discounted offering (priced the same way as the 645D,) which hurts margins and keeps the whole thing very break-even.

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[jsherman999]

• Do colors sell more K-mounts?
  
• Figure out how to sell K50's in colors, even Build-to-Order
  
• Does a stripped-down K500 for US and Europe sell more K-mounts?
  
• Disable something and price it lower
  
• Does a 4-body offering sell more K-mounts?
  
• Sell K600, K50, K5II and K3 all together now

I suspect all of the above is just different ways to divide up the same pie.

• Would a FF sell more K-mounts?
  
• I guess they still don't know for sure

It absolutely would, and would open an avenue to higher-margin lenses on top of that. I think Ricoh is realizing that they'll have a hard time selling $3000+ telephotos to folks looking for $600 K-5II's on the B&H closeout sales.

(By the way, I'm not denigrating the smart shopper who's smart enough to pick up a $600 new K-5 II - you just bought a great camera at a great price - but Pentax/Ricoh can't bank on us bargain hunters forever )

I think you'll see a wealth of new K-mount lenses in the years following a FF body, from Pentax, Sigma, Tamron.


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Last edited by jsherman999; 12-28-2013 at 10:02 AM.

[Fogel70]

I've seen that article, and it's eye opening - in that it shows the $25,000 Leica S2 being barely better in IQ, in some circumstances, than the $3000 D800E. (Let's not get into the Leica lens costs! )

Remember - this is not a $3000 (or $2700, $2000, $1600) vs. $1200 camera comparison, as a lot of FF vs aps-c comparisons are - it's $25,000 vs. $3000 - without even factoring in the break-bank lenses.

Also, remember - the gist of the argument isn't "Is MF marginally better in IQ," it's "Where should Pentax focus it's efforts". A big Ricoh MF initiative is just about as useful to 99% of Pentaxians as a big Nikon FF initiative, because it's a different mount.

But it's not really surprising since sensor size difference is minor. Leica S vs FF is like FF vs APS-H. (Leica S has 56% larger sensor than FF).
And the sad thing is that Leica S system don't support larger sensor than that, so they might end up being the 4/3 system of medium format.

[mecrox]

I have heard it said that Ricoh doesn't care what is wrapped around the K-mount. They only care how many K-mounts they sell. K-mount sales lead to lens sales, and accessories and eventually to more K-mount sales.

• Do colors sell more K-mounts?
  • Figure out how to sell K50's in colors, even Build-to-Order
• Does a stripped-down K500 for US and Europe sell more K-mounts?
  • Disable something and price it lower
• Does a 4-body offering sell more K-mounts?
  • Sell K600, K50, K5II and K3 all together now
• Would a FF sell more K-mounts?
  • I guess they still don't know for sure

Well, in fact I'm sure they do care, as do we. If they really didn't care, they'd sell a three-legged alpaca with a shutter button on its bum and call it a K-mount. They can only sell what's consistent with Pentax's bar for quality unless they want to damage their reputation. That narrows their options somewhat.

I think your last question is easier to answer by asking "Would having an FF sell more K-mounts than not having an FF?" I think the answer has to be Yes. All the indications so far are that Ricoh are not going to add a fifth mount to the mix, a short-registration "MILC mount". In which case, K-mount is all they have so it's the only mount they can exploit. Part of that is making folks feel very sure that it isn't about to fizzle out or be discontinued, and an FF range would be part of that reassurance. The present dance around "Yes No Maybe" isn't reassuring. K-mount can't really be exploited by going down market because that is now MILC and fixed-lens territory. The only direction K-mount can go is up market.

It would also likely make Pentax cameras far less expensive than they are now. An FF line would end Furore Pentaxus, or Format Frenzy, an incurable condition in which the victim is by turns very angry and strangely serene about Pentax not having an FF sensor in their range. Cases are far from uncommon, even on this forum. The psychiatrist's fees alone must run to twice the cost of any Pentax kit.

[kenyee]

I
I think you'll see a wealth of new K-mount lenses in the years following a FF body, from Pentax, Sigma, Tamron.

I find that hard to believe in Tamron's case. It seems they've given up on Pentax's market share and instead have banked on Sony surviving. Their recent lenses have only been released for Canikon/Sony...

The question for Pentax will be whether they can compete w/ the D610 and 6D which Canikon have aimed at the ones who want low end FF...they even seem to have given up high end APS-C despite cries for the D400 and less so for Canon because they have the 1D

[Fogel70]

I find that hard to believe in Tamron's case. It seems they've given up on Pentax's market share and instead have banked on Sony surviving. Their recent lenses have only been released for Canikon/Sony...

I think this has more to do with Sony being the second largest shareholder of Tamron.
http://www.tamron.co.jp/en/investors/ir/

[monochrome]

I believe there is a FF coming. I believe it will be sooner than we think and later than most want. I believe it will be within this product cycle, but 645DII comes first. I believe it will be different - something not really expected (I don't mean mirrorless) - and excitingly good, but lots of Loyal Pentax Users will be troubled by what it isn't.

We'll understand the product strategy when we see the lenses. If they're wide, normal, medium (35 and 50 economy and FA Limited HD?, plus D-FA Macros) and two *Zooms we'll know they aren't competing for Sports/Action. That will explain whatever Mp and pixel density is, the frame rate is, whatever the AF improvement is, whatever the shutter life is and whether there is a faster Flash sync. And they won't have to build a global support network right away. I think we can rule out Sports/Action.

What happened shortly after the DA Limiteds were updated to HD coatings? I wonder what FW updates might be made to the new flashes if there was a new shutter in a new body? What EE flash prog can be added in-camera? Are 25 cross-points enough for certain professional FF uses? Are 51 necessary if you don't need high-end tracking AF? What could future iterations of color AF tracking module mean? Can an optical viewfinder somehow distinguish a Pentax from its competition as a professional improvement (think LX)? Can there be something else professionally useful - even ground-breaking - in a Pentax FF?

Or will a Ricoh Pentax merely come to be known as an outrageously dependable, productive, no-surprises image management system as the copiers have become the main battle tanks of document management systems? So good no one ever thinks about them.

Aside from IBIS technology and flash sync issues the bulk of the FF work is already complete, right? I have it on my K3.

Sure, I'm just speculating - sniffing smoke signals - but there sure does seem to be a lot of smoke in the air.

Watch the lenses.

[monochrome]

The question for Pentax will be whether they can compete w/ the D610 and 6D which Canikon have aimed at the ones who want low end FF...they even seem to have given up high end APS-C despite cries for the D400 and less so for Canon because they have the 1D

Some here think they won't bother with the D610 - they'll target the D800.

[Chris Mak]

I believe there is a FF coming. I believe it will be sooner than we think and later than most want. I believe it will be within this product cycle, but 645DII comes first. I believe it will be different - something not really expected (I don't mean mirrorless) - and excitingly good, but lots of Loyal Pentax Users will be troubled by what it isn't.

We'll understand the product strategy when we see the lenses. If they're wide, normal, medium (35 and 50 economy and FA Limited HD?, plus D-FA Macros) and two *Zooms we'll know they aren't competing for Sports/Action. That will explain whatever Mp and pixel density is, the frame rate is, whatever the AF improvement is, whatever the shutter life is and whether there is a faster Flash sync. And they won't have to build a global support network right away. I think we can rule out Sports/Action.

What happened shortly after the DA Limiteds were updated to HD coatings? I wonder what FW updates might be made to the new flashes if there was a new shutter in a new body? What EE flash prog can be added in-camera? Are 25 cross-points enough for certain professional FF uses? Are 51 necessary if you don't need high-end tracking AF? What could future iterations of color AF tracking module mean? Can an optical viewfinder somehow distinguish a Pentax from its competition as a professional improvement (think LX)? Can there be something else professionally useful - even ground-breaking - in a Pentax FF?

Or will a Ricoh Pentax merely come to be known as an outrageously dependable, productive, no-surprises image management system as the copiers have become the main battle tanks of document management systems? So good no one ever thinks about them.

Aside from IBIS technology and flash sync issues the bulk of the FF work is already complete, right? I have it on my K3.

Sure, I'm just speculating - sniffing smoke signals - but there sure does seem to be a lot of smoke in the air.

Watch the lenses.

Does a possible Pentax FF really have to target a professional use?
I still have vividly in my mind the failure of Olympus 4/3, if only they hadn't tried to target a professional user base.....
I believe that with the introduction of the Sony A7(r) camera, the time that FF was explicitly for the professional user, is over. FF should become far more mainstream in the next five years, and Sony is willing to help a hand in achieving this. So Pentax should not target professionals like Olympus did, it is bound to fail. They should target another audience: the serious enthusiast photographer with a passion for the IQ that is possible with the FF system.
The K3 can serve as a perfect role model for the first Pentax FF digital, and if Pentax really believes that it won't sell on the FF merit alone, than let them add something for the IQ lovers, instead of getting in a dead end trying to compete with Canon or Nikon on AF or the flash system.
There are enough around that understand that with a FF dslr, the sensor is not alone in trying to render superior images to Apsc, good lenses designed for FF will help along with the larger coverage and superior wide angle shooting.
Why do Nikon shooters pay 3000,- for the D800(e), when they can get the D7100 for 1000,-? Surely not for FF reputation? Would you pay 2000,- more just for reputation's sake? Pentax users are (understandibly) largely ignorant of the FF system, so Pentax will have to give it some time, but once the benefits of the FF sytem are experienced, Pentax should have no problem selling a high quality FF camera.

Chris

[monochrome]

The K3 can serve as a perfect role model for the first Pentax FF digital, and if Pentax really believes that it won't sell on the FF merit alone, than let them add something for the IQ lovers, instead of getting in a dead end trying to compete with Canon or Nikon on AF or the flash system.

I've specifically written that Pentax cannot and will not compete head-to-head with Canon and Nikon in the segments of the professional market that require high support infrastructure such as global lens lending and rental, quick-turn repairs and extreme-use but small volume applications such as super-tele. That doesn't mean a halo product can be a success without at least a reasonable case to be made for professional application. Users here dismiss the 1/180 Pentax flash sync cameras constantly because it isn't up to current standards. Same with AF, frame rate, warranty and a host of other spec.'s and features. K3 addressed many of the criticisms. I expect a FF willl address more of them - at least bring the spec.'s into current standard range.

Consumers buy cameras and lenses they'll never use to full capability because they want the association. Enthusiasts use the capability, but they are incremental volume and revenue. Consumers are the Gross volume and revenue.

Then again, you might be correct - they may ignore any association with professionals and market a purely enthusiast system that is different.

good lenses designed for FF will help along with the larger coverage and superior wide angle shooting.

The camera is incidental. It has a product life measured in calendar quarters.

My conclusion was and remains - watch the lenses to understand the product strategy.