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03-02-2014, 04:48 AM   #211
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While many are asking for a FF body how many would actually buy one? It would have to be an amazing body to attract other brand users and the lack of lenses will slow sales. Given the reduction in the overall camera market, Ricoh are likely wondering what direction to take. When the market is expanding it is much easier than in a contracting market.

Dale

03-02-2014, 05:36 AM - 1 Like   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by DDoram Quote
While many are asking for a FF body how many would actually buy one?
At some point, it will be a market competitiveness issue, just like they were forced to finally add decent (note I didn't say great) video on the K-3.
D600 refurbs are down to $1200. D610s are down to $1900. Once FF bodies average around $1500, Pentax will have a serious issue because they'll have to price their APS-C bodies down in the $800-900 range when they want to be in the $1300 range to make back their R&D given our smaller user base...
03-02-2014, 06:26 AM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
At some point, it will be a market competitiveness issue, just like they were forced to finally add decent (note I didn't say great) video on the K-3.
D600 refurbs are down to $1200. D610s are down to $1900. Once FF bodies average around $1500, Pentax will have a serious issue because they'll have to price their APS-C bodies down in the $800-900 range when they want to be in the $1300 range to make back their R&D given our smaller user base...
Come to think of it, yeah... the first big bite into the high-end APS-C Pentax is enjoying right now is when the gen-1 of "affordable FF's" make their way to the secondhand market...
03-02-2014, 06:42 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by DDoram Quote
It would have to be an amazing body to attract other brand users
Dale
Easier than to attact other brand users with an aps-c in the same price range as their current brand offers FF.

03-02-2014, 06:58 AM   #215
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It's not because FF camera are the same price than APS-C that peoples necessarly want to buy an FF. You forget about all the rest of the system who is more expensive for FF.
03-02-2014, 08:01 AM   #216
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The extra cost of full frame is mainly in the sensor. You also need a more sturdy mirror and shutter mechanism because those are bigger and a bigger pentaprism. But the technology is exactly the same as for aps-c. You could make it roughly the same size as the K-3 with a bigger Pentaprism hump. The Sony A99 proves IBIS is possible in a FF Body. You could sell it for 300 or 400 dollars more than the K-3. It would undercut the Canonikons which are crippled. No doubt Tamron and Sigma will start to adapt their Full Frame offerings to Pentax once they start selling. Ricoh should make IS smart, so that the in Body IS shuts down when a lens IS is turned on. (like it already does in certain shooting modes).
03-02-2014, 08:27 AM   #217
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Most of you fail to remember the sensor is a small part if the cam. Many people would prefer an APS if the body isn't crippled...
03-02-2014, 08:27 AM - 1 Like   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
You could sell it for 300 or 400 dollars more than the K-3.
That isn't realistic. You forget there is a markup between where Ricoh prices the cameras to make a profit out-the-factory-door to the Regional Division or Distributor; a further markup between what the 'Distributors' pay and the price they sell to the retailers (they have to cover the costs of operating the Division and any regional marketing); and then the Retailer markup to pay for their costs, sales commissions, plus a profit.

The additional cost of the sensor, viewfinder, shutter assembly and anything additional to 'compete' with a D800-level camera at the factory level price gets marked up several times before you get to buy the camera. An Amazon price closer to the D800 ($2,799 Amazon Body-only, $2,999 List) is more likely, or at least $1,000 more than the K3.


Last edited by monochrome; 03-02-2014 at 10:20 AM.
03-02-2014, 08:56 AM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
At some point, it will be a market competitiveness issue, just like they were forced to finally add decent (note I didn't say great) video on the K-3.
D600 refurbs are down to $1200. D610s are down to $1900. Once FF bodies average around $1500, Pentax will have a serious issue because they'll have to price their APS-C bodies down in the $800-900 range when they want to be in the $1300 range to make back their R&D given our smaller user base...
Last time I checked the 6D was $1585. When I bought the D600 + 24-85 + memory card + bag, the combo was $2k.

YMMV, but I'd say we're basically at $1600 right now. APS-C is definitely seeing price pressure. The 7D and the D300s will turn 5 years old! in july/sept. That's 2.5 - 3.5 product generations! There's a reason the 'new' camera hasn't been introduced.

You could say that Pentax has a niche - it does - with high end APS-C, but Pentax doesn't have any respectable glass above 300mm, and although I love the DA*300, it's still not a F/2.8 which many require.
03-02-2014, 09:00 AM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
That isn't realistic. You forget there is a markup between where Ricoh prices the cameras to make a profit out-the-door to the Regional Division or Distributor; a further markup between what the 'Distributors' pay and the price they sell to the retailers (they have to cover the costs of operating the division and any regional marketing); and then the Retaiier markup to pay for their costs, sales commissions, plus a profit.

The additional cost of the sensor, viewfinder, shutter assembly and anything additional to 'compete' with a D800-level camera at the factory level price gets marked up several times before you get to buy the camera. An Amazon price closer to the D800 ($2,799 Amazon Body-only, $2,999 List) is more likely, or at least $1,000 more than the K3.

If you are going to succeed in modern business you have to cut out much of those middle costs with a much more direct distribution model. I don't think the manufacturing cost will be much more than $100 more than the k-3. All those steps in bringing the camera to the market increase the price exponentially, while they don't have to be there. They could sell them directly to the customer from the factory floor, with just a mark-up for your local service organisation. The D600 6D are about $1900. The D800 is a pro camera, not prosumer. Nikon have a custom developed sensor in it. Pentax will have the 24mp sony, which is much cheaper. Also Pentax doesn't have to cripple it because they don't have a D800 or 5d MkIII to sell.
03-02-2014, 10:29 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
If you are going to succeed in modern business you have to cut out much of those middle costs with a much more direct distribution model. I don't think the manufacturing cost will be much more than $100 more than the k-3. All those steps in bringing the camera to the market increase the price exponentially, while they don't have to be there. They could sell them directly to the customer from the factory floor, with just a mark-up for your local service organisation. The D600 6D are about $1900. The D800 is a pro camera, not prosumer. Nikon have a custom developed sensor in it. Pentax will have the 24mp sony, which is much cheaper. Also Pentax doesn't have to cripple it because they don't have a D800 or 5d MkIII to sell.
The D800 is a Sony sensor, just like the D600... I agree that the 24MP is more likely in the Pentax FF, but I wouldn't call the D800 a 'custom developed' sensor any more than the 24MP is 'custom'.
03-02-2014, 10:32 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
If you are going to succeed in modern business you have to cut out much of those middle costs with a much more direct distribution model. I don't think the manufacturing cost will be much more than $100 more than the k-3.
I really should just let this go, but are you an engineer? Where did you get that estimate?
QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
All those steps in bringing the camera to the market increase the price exponentially, while they don't have to be there. They could sell them directly to the customer from the factory floor, with just a mark-up for your local service organisation.
Yeah, that's a paraphrase of something Thom Hogan wrote two years ago that he insisted Pentax would have to do. You are describing Amazon - which presents the singular problem of how a customer will ever see the camera before buying it.
QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
The D600 6D are about $1900. The D800 is a pro camera, not prosumer. Nikon have a custom developed sensor in it. Pentax will have the 24mp sony, which is much cheaper. Also Pentax doesn't have to cripple it because they don't have a D800 or 5d MkIII to sell.
I do not believe Pentax wants to compete at the level of the D610. The D610 is certainly not a prosumer camera. Making a profit there requires too much volume and competing on price is their past, not their future. They won't bother making a competitor to the D610 / 6D. They'll offer near D800 features and split the price gap between the two. They'll continue to call on B&M dealers with a higher-profit-margin, lower-volume brand strategy and the value will be in the features, quality, IQ, lenses, small size and ergonomics at the price versus the higher volume, lower featured models.

There is no such thing as a pro dSLR camera. All dSLR cameras are prosumer cameras. Selling cameras with pro features to consumers is where they get the volume. If you think about it, a pro should prefer the absolute least expensive tool to get the job done. I'd bet the bulk of professional photographers shoot APSc.

There is nothing wrong with people buying a 6D or D610 if that's what they want and want to pay. That doesn't mean Pentax has to compete there, though, so they won't.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-02-2014 at 10:38 AM.
03-02-2014, 11:00 AM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
There is no such thing as a pro dSLR camera.
Que??

QuoteQuote:
They'll offer near D800 features and split the price gap between the two.
Seems likely... a AA-less camera would be nice. I'd prefer the 36MP sensor but think the 24MP sensor is more likely.
03-02-2014, 11:23 AM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I really should just let this go, but are you an engineer? Where did you get that estimate?
ball park estimate.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome:
Yeah, that's a paraphrase of something Thom Hogan wrote two years ago that he insisted Pentax would have to do. You are describing Amazon - which presents the singular problem of how a customer will ever see the camera before buying it. I do not believe Pentax wants to compete at the level of the D610. The D610 is certainly not a prosumer camera. Making a profit there requires too much volume and competing on price is their past, not their future. They won't bother making a competitor to the D610 / 6D. They'll offer near D800 features and split the price gap between the two. They'll continue to call on B&M dealers with a higher-profit-margin, lower-volume brand strategy and the value will be in the features, quality, IQ, lenses, small size and ergonomics at the price versus the higher volume, lower featured models.

There is no such thing as a pro dSLR camera. All dSLR cameras are prosumer cameras. Selling cameras with pro features to consumers is where they get the volume. If you think about it, a pro should prefer the absolute least expensive tool to get the job done. I'd bet the bulk of professional photographers shoot APSc.

There is nothing wrong with people buying a 6D or D610 if that's what they want and want to pay. That doesn't mean Pentax has to compete there, though, so they won't.
D610 is not a prosumer dlsr camera? but all dslr's are prosumer? D4 and 1Dx are Prosumer? D3200 is prosumer? You are not making sense.
03-02-2014, 11:31 AM   #225
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Somehow, it looks like the FA Limiteds have been banished from this thread.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/220217-full-frame-s...ml#post2333409
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