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01-20-2014, 08:57 AM - 1 Like   #106
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I can definitively see the problem that mobile phones pose for camera manufactures. However, what I do not understand is why there are still so many point and shoot cameras available. For example, I ran a search on B&H for Canon point and shoot cameras, and it pulled up 43 PowerShot models. A similar search for Nikon pulled up 51 Coolpix models. Additional searches revealed 35 for Panasonic and 45 for Samsung, etc.!?! I do not understand why there are so many point and shoot models, especially considering the wide use of mobile phones.


Last edited by Kenntak; 01-20-2014 at 09:56 AM.
01-20-2014, 09:36 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
That's not what I said. It doesn't need to be the best in everything. But a flagship camera does need to be the best at something. If it would only be the very best in just one of those areas. They're to afraid to make sacrifices to exel at anything. What is the Pentax speciality? Pick one or two characteristics, be the ultimate best in class and keep that level up for a longer period.
The claim made on the Pentax Japan website is "K3. The Ultimate Field Camera." We know they're not up to sports. Studio was 645D - now maybe D800e. Maybe they're really aiming for highest build quality outdoor Landscape camera. The value statement is features and quality at a price, not price alone.

Last edited by monochrome; 01-20-2014 at 09:56 AM.
01-20-2014, 09:42 AM   #108
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I guess the plan (not Ricoh's ) is:

Identify Pentax' weakest points, those they can't address at the moment (e.g. not having a pro-spec AF)
Claim that Pentax is no good unless they become leaders in those areas
???
Profit!
01-20-2014, 10:31 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kenntak Quote
I do not understand why there are so many point and shoot models, especially considering the wide use of mobile phones.
Some are pretty long in the tooth.

I still wouldn't use my phone but of course I wouldn't use a P+S either, so I'm not relevant.

01-20-2014, 12:58 PM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
The advantage of dedicated cameras over phones is their larger format and resolution. All things being equal, that will never ever change. But then all things have do have to be equal. The camera manufacturers have to learn from and keep up with the mobile phone cameras. When dedicated can do all the tricks mobile phones are using, but on a larger format with high IQ lenses they'll have the upper hand again. Maybe it's smart to team up with them instead of competing against them?



A little dip in the water?! I used it to look behind the live rock of my saltwater aquarium on multiple occasions. That means completely submerged for over 10 minutes. In the meanwhile transmitting the image to my TV. I used it to find a predatory schrimp, so I could position the trap close to it.
Well if a larger groupe off consumers doesn't mind the level off Image Quality, as long as they can share them on social media. With that groupe growing the demand for future high image quality camera's will shrink.

Well the Sony Xperia Z1 is the first in it's kind and by the time we can go snorkeling with an iPad there isn't a market for WG-series left over.
01-20-2014, 01:32 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kenntak Quote
... what I do not understand is why there are still so many point and shoot cameras available.
I know two people who refuse to use anything except PnS cameras. Also, my (and every company in my industry) will only buy PnS cameras for our construction sites because replacing a $150 camera that falls under a tractor tire is cheaper than replacing a DSLR. Also, the learning curve is a lot lower so when all that's required is taking photos to document progress and provide evidence in the event of a dispute, a DSLR has a lot more leeway to lead to poor photos that jeopardize claims.
01-20-2014, 01:45 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by K David Quote
I know two people who refuse to use anything except PnS cameras. Also, my (and every company in my industry) will only buy PnS cameras for our construction sites because replacing a $150 camera that falls under a tractor tire is cheaper than replacing a DSLR. Also, the learning curve is a lot lower so when all that's required is taking photos to document progress and provide evidence in the event of a dispute, a DSLR has a lot more leeway to lead to poor photos that jeopardize claims.
Thanks, with all the gloom and doom talk that mobile phones are wiping out P&S cameras, I am trying to understand where the market is for them. I was genuinely surprised to see how many models were being sold by the camera manufactures, and wondered why there are so many choices. I assume a lot of people are still buying them. I don't use a P&S camera, but I figure that if there is a market for them, maybe that bodes well for DSLRs. Hope so.
01-20-2014, 02:41 PM   #113
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The reason there are so many available is because the market has crashed. Those search results are mostly old models that have unsold inventory. This is actually a bit of a boon for Pentax, because the big two are bleeding money dealing unsold stock in both the p&s category and in the enthusiast market. They're not losing money on the whole, but they will be forced to restructure their product lines to accommodate a smaller market. At the same time Pentax is solidifying its own product lines having hardly felt the pinch of the markets contraction.

01-20-2014, 03:27 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kenntak Quote
Thanks, with all the gloom and doom talk that mobile phones are wiping out P&S cameras, I am trying to understand where the market is for them. I was genuinely surprised to see how many models were being sold by the camera manufactures, and wondered why there are so many choices. I assume a lot of people are still buying them. I don't use a P&S camera, but I figure that if there is a market for them, maybe that bodes well for DSLRs. Hope so.
Smartphones are P&S cameras but if someone wants a P&S with a 60x optical zoom to shoot birds etc you will not find a smartphone with one.
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01-20-2014, 03:48 PM   #115
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Ron thanks for posting this.

What was the response to your inquiry about APS-H. When Pentax and Samsung were working together I thought it would have been a good business decision for both companies. APS-H would have set them apart from that mid range camera demographic. Samsung was producing the sensors so they could have feasibly done this on their own.

I hope Pentax Ricoh do not go all retro body like Nikon and it looks like Fujifilm is doing. Pentax has done an excellent job keeping the body design looking forward. Sensible modern design based on the same simple principles of the past. I think Sony has really produced an excellent camera in the a7. It really is close to a modern day LX. Tilting screen and all. The tilting screen on the MX-1 was done very well by Pentax.

Correct me if I am wrong there was no mention of a K-01 question. I think Pentax Ricoh need to develop this concept further. A hybrid of what Sony has done with the a7. XS mount.
01-20-2014, 04:06 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
Ron thanks for posting this.

What was the response to your inquiry about APS-H. When Pentax and Samsung were working together I thought it would have been a good business decision for both companies. APS-H would have set them apart from that mid range camera demographic....
Because if they opted for the APS-H, all their current lenses specifically made for APS-C would deliver suboptimal image quality in corners. The image circle would require cropping, and then, in effect, they could have put the FF sensor inside as well, not APS-H, and crop the APS-C image circle inside the FF.

Using the FF sensor, at least older film lenses would be in their native mode, not crippled with the APS-H crop factor. There is a reason Leica M9 outsold Leica M8 by a huge margin, despite being more expensive! The user satisfaction thermometer sank below zero with the APS-H, and despite having at least some digital Leica, they wanted the full image circle back.

APS-H is indeed a no man's land.

Last edited by Uluru; 01-20-2014 at 04:13 PM.
01-20-2014, 04:23 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
Ron thanks for posting this.

What was the response to your inquiry about APS-H. When Pentax and Samsung were working together I thought it would have been a good business decision for both companies. APS-H would have set them apart from that mid range camera demographic. Samsung was producing the sensors so they could have feasibly done this on their own.

Correct me if I am wrong there was no mention of a K-01 question. I think Pentax Ricoh need to develop this concept further. A hybrid of what Sony has done with the a7. XS mount.
As you can see in the Original image taken with the Ricoh Theta360, Original Image with the Theta you can see my Yellow brick on the table. So it did get mentioned, also some off my images in the book are taken with the K-01 as is with images I had on my photo exhibition. Not in the sence if Pentax would do that again, but we talked about liking the camera or not, since that was deviding people.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Because if they opted for the APS-H, all their current lenses specifically made for APS-C would deliver suboptimal image quality in corners. The image circle would require cropping, and then, in effect, they could have put the FF sensor inside as well, not APS-H, and crop the APS-C image circle inside the FF.

APS-H is indeed a no man's land.
Well our discussion about APS-H was not so long and in the corner of offering a Full Frame camera model from Pentax. In general about what attraction a Full Frame from Pentax could have when using the same 24 megapixelsensor as already in camera's from other brands. Is there a marketshare to gain from other manufacturors or just appealing to the current Pentax user. My main statement was that Pentax could gain more offering a camera with a sensor designed for Pentax, instead off using the same sensor others use. When designing a new sensor the option for APS-H comes along. The advantage for APS-H is better imgae quality offering starting from APS-C while offering a new cameramodel not in the offerings from the competition. I think this would be very attractive for sports and wildlife photography. If it is an option for Pentax to have a new sensor for them, I don't know and the people on the other side off the table also didn't. Since we don't know how expensive it would be to design such a sensor. The option I would be in favor for would be a 20 megapixel APS-H sensor.
01-20-2014, 04:38 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Smartphones are P&S cameras
More like click, then navigate, then click again, then move the camera around, then point, then shoot.
01-20-2014, 04:50 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
...Since we don't know how expensive it would be to design such a sensor. The option I would be in favor for would be a 20 megapixel APS-H sensor.

APS-H gives too little to be a serious consideration and investment for the future. Especially considering the legacy; the legacy is 135 format. If people are to be displeased with crop of any kind, then APS-C and -H are equally bad. But to design all new lenses, then APS-C has more advantages, first because (considering the same cost) lenses can be made optically better and significantly smaller. And secondly, because the cost is shared with other manufacturers in sensor production. That saves tons of money.

APS-H would kill Pentax, as Pentax would bear the entire cost of custom ordered -H sensors. Even Leica gave up on the idea to continue on -H sensors as soon as they have received intakes of investment capital. The word was that they could get newer FF sensors at same prices as -H sensors (-H would involve extra setup cost), and for them there was no doubt which way to go. And they have even raised the price of the M9, despite the same cost and people loved it.

Last edited by Uluru; 01-20-2014 at 04:56 PM.
01-20-2014, 05:09 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
APS-H would kill Pentax, as Pentax would bear the entire cost of custom ordered -H sensors. Even Leica gave up on the idea to continue on -H sensors as soon as they have received intakes of investment capital. The word was that they could get newer FF sensors at same prices as -H sensors (-H would involve extra setup cost), and for them there was no doubt which way to go. And they have even raised the price of the M9, despite the same cost and people loved it.
Well Pentax can't sell FF camera's at Leica's price (6.299 euro), so there is no comparison in the two company's. For Pentax a FF camera should be a relative succesfull model in the market selling enough items to be profitable.
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