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02-10-2014, 03:43 PM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Hence the conundrum around the 560 f/5.6.

It doesn't have that many elements (like a telescope), doesn't focus very close (still closer than a telescope, generally), etc. Yet it's $7k.

In terms of 'real' telephoto lenses there's a lot more elements, more correction, etc, in camera lenses than in telescopes.
The conundrum was not about the DA560's value; a non Pentax photographer would compare it to similar 500+mm Nikon and Canons and conclude the lens is of good value.

Problem is Pentax user land; again, and quite like in choosing a Pentax camera, they have either a $1300 300mm lens, and a $7k 560mm lens, and nothing in between. A K-5 at $1200 and 645D at $9K (back then). The stretch is too wide to be applauded.

Users perceived they were given no real and reasonable choice, which is quite true. TC is issued just now, 17 months after the DA560, and that time elapsed only worsened the *perception* about any possible value of the DA560.

It was indeed Ricoh's fault in mismanagement of the brand, and the TC had to be addressed well before the DA560.


Last edited by Uluru; 02-10-2014 at 03:49 PM.
02-10-2014, 04:04 PM   #377
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
The conundrum was not about the DA560's value; a non Pentax photographer would compare it to similar 500+mm Nikon and Canons and conclude the lens is of good value.
I disagree. It's barely cheaper than the Nikon 500mm f/4 which is a very, very good lens, and a much better value IMO... sharp, close focus distance, short, light-ish. FWIW, I'd rather have the Sigma 500mm f/4.5 at an even cost than the 560, and the 560 is thousands of dollars more.

I was waiting for the 560... and when I saw what it cost, purchased a D600, 300-800mm f/5.6 (used), 24-85mm, and 1.4x T/C for less than the cost of that lens and still had plenty of money left over. Nikon is very expensive in normal-range lenses but a much better value than Pentax IMO in ultra-telephotos.


QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Problem is Pentax user land; again, and quite like in choosing a Pentax camera, they have either a $1300 300mm lens, and a $7k 560mm lens, and nothing in between. A K-5 at $1200 and 645D at $9K (back then). The stretch is too wide to be applauded.
Also true.
02-10-2014, 04:39 PM   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I disagree. It's barely cheaper than the Nikon 500mm f/4 which is a very, very good lens, and a much better value IMO... sharp, close focus distance, short, light-ish. FWIW, I'd rather have the Sigma 500mm f/4.5 at an even cost than the 560, and the 560 is thousands of dollars more.

I was waiting for the 560... and when I saw what it cost, purchased a D600, 300-800mm f/5.6 (used), 24-85mm, and 1.4x T/C for less than the cost of that lens and still had plenty of money left over. Nikon is very expensive in normal-range lenses but a much better value than Pentax IMO in ultra-telephotos.
Nikon is 500mm, Pentax is 560mm. Nikon has 600mm lens too. Yet the Pentax is cheaper than both Nikons.
Canon's 500mm is more expensive than Nikon's, so Pentax is cheaper again.

What I want to say is that users have developed a perception that Pentax tele-lens have no value, and you are not an exception. You only confirm he rule.

You have also bought into Nikon following that same perception that Nikon offers more to you, and it is true based on your perception. However if you wanted a 500/4 lens, you would pay more than for Pentax DA560, but you didn't, and opted for something else.

Yet again, you then advocate DA560 is not a good real value, which is not true. You judge its perceived value.
02-10-2014, 06:37 PM   #379
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Nikon is 500mm, Pentax is 560mm. Nikon has 600mm lens too. Yet the Pentax is cheaper than both Nikons.
But much slower, though. The 500 f/4 + 1.4TC is the same speed, undoubtedly FF, is 25% longer and only 21% more!

In general the glass used very roughly correlates to front lens diameter^3. In fact the Pentax is a bit under that because it's a simple lens with few elements, so there should be some discount, even.

To over-use this correlation, just to show my point:

600mm F/4: $10000/(600/4)^3 = $2963/dm^3
500mm F/4: $8000/(500/4)^3 = $4096/dm^3
560mm F/5.6: $7000/(560/5.6)^3 = $7000/dm^3

Like ^2 better? Fair enough, and perhaps a bit better predictor....

600mm F/4: $10000/(600/4)^2 = $4444 /dm^2
500mm F/4: $8000/(500/4)^2 = $5120/dm^2
560mm F/5.6: $7000/(560/5.6)^2 = $7000/dm^2






QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
What I want to say is that users have developed a perception that Pentax tele-lens have no value, and you are not an exception. You only confirm he rule.
That's completely wrong on both counts, fwiw.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Yet again, you then advocate DA560 is not a good real value, which is not true. You judge its perceived value.
We both have a perception of value. For my use the long MFD is worth a discount of 20%. The fewer elements is worth a discount of 10%. The vignetting wide open is worth a discount of 15%.

So, for the 'same' otherwise lens I'd want it to be 61% of the cost of another lens.

So let's take the 500mm F/4 as the closest competitor... 61% of $8k is $5k. Heck at that amount of money I'd still prefer the Sigma, but I can understand how Pentax wants/needs to charge more, and of course that's OK.

What's your perception of the value?

02-10-2014, 06:54 PM   #380
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All the above are way too expensive for me!
02-10-2014, 07:17 PM   #381
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Nikon is 500mm, Pentax is 560mm. Nikon has 600mm lens too. Yet the Pentax is cheaper than both Nikons.
Canon's 500mm is more expensive than Nikon's, so Pentax is cheaper again.

What I want to say is that users have developed a perception that Pentax tele-lens have no value, and you are not an exception. You only confirm he rule.

You have also bought into Nikon following that same perception that Nikon offers more to you, and it is true based on your perception. However if you wanted a 500/4 lens, you would pay more than for Pentax DA560, but you didn't, and opted for something else.

Yet again, you then advocate DA560 is not a good real value, which is not true. You judge its perceived value.
I think that Ricoh made a huge mistake with the DA560 and I bet the sales will support that. Why would anyone buy it over the Sigma 500mm which is faster, shorter and focuses closer. The DA 560 is just a nice and expensive low power telescope. Me... I'm saving for the Sigma and even if Pentax dropped the price on the DA560 I doubt I'd consider it.
02-10-2014, 07:36 PM   #382
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Would love a DA560 @ $7,999.00AUD (bet they haven't sold many at that price), or Sigma 500 around $6099.00AUD. But they are way to expensive for me. Have been waiting for the 135ish-380ish to come out. Hoping it will be around the F4 to 5.6. and not over priced. It would be nice to be able to work with the TC. But not a must given 380x1.5= 570mm, good enough for me for surfing/birding. Plus i still use a K20D. So would need to upgrade to the K3 first to use the TC, (maybe K60 if one came out)

If the Pentax 135-380ish is to expensive, say, over $1400AUD. I'd just get the Sigma 120-400mm f/4.5-5.6 APO DG OS HSM @ $890AUD.

So Pentax...120/135mm to 380/400mm ED WR or AW at f4 to f5.6 around $1000.
02-10-2014, 08:01 PM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by Craig66 Quote
Would love a DA560 @ $7,999.00AUD (bet they haven't sold many at that price), or Sigma 500 around $6099.00AUD. But they are way to expensive for me. Have been waiting for the 135ish-380ish to come out. Hoping it will be around the F4 to 5.6. and not over priced. It would be nice to be able to work with the TC. But not a must given 380x1.5= 570mm, good enough for me for surfing/birding. Plus i still use a K20D. So would need to upgrade to the K3 first to use the TC, (maybe K60 if one came out)

If the Pentax 135-380ish is to expensive, say, over $1400AUD. I'd just get the Sigma 120-400mm f/4.5-5.6 APO DG OS HSM @ $890AUD.

So Pentax...120/135mm to 380/400mm ED WR or AW at f4 to f5.6 around $1000.
Since i have the Sigma 150-500 the only reason I want the new Pentax offering would be WR, but if it is too expensive I'll stick with what I have for long range.

02-10-2014, 08:10 PM   #384
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Nikon is 500mm, Pentax is 560mm. Nikon has 600mm lens too. Yet the Pentax is cheaper than both Nikons.
Canon's 500mm is more expensive than Nikon's, so Pentax is cheaper again.

What I want to say is that users have developed a perception that Pentax tele-lens have no value, and you are not an exception. You only confirm he rule.

You have also bought into Nikon following that same perception that Nikon offers more to you, and it is true based on your perception. However if you wanted a 500/4 lens, you would pay more than for Pentax DA560, but you didn't, and opted for something else.

Yet again, you then advocate DA560 is not a good real value, which is not true. You judge its perceived value.
Those Canon and Nikon lenses are all f/4 or faster.
02-10-2014, 08:52 PM   #385
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The way Ricoh is going it will be a 5/6.3 lens and cost 2700.oo usDollar
02-10-2014, 09:29 PM   #386
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Those Canon and Nikon lenses are all f/4 or faster.

As one has owns a bunch of long fast lenses and has used them, I suggest that the speed is somewhat over rated in the real world
unless you are wanting to use a converter in addition. Remember the conventional wisdom that a lens needed to be f/4 to be useful
was set in an era when high speed film was ISO 160. A very critical problem with extreme telephotos is the lack of depth
of field.



If you look at the above Stellar Jay picture you can see exactly what the problem was. This was taken with an FA-600 at near the minimum
focal length at f5.--- and at ISO 6400 and shutter of 1/1000 with fairly decent lighting.

since I had no time for delayed release for full support, I needed the most of the speed to mitigate camera movement,, but if I'd taking the
ISO to 9600 it would have been a better photo as the beak probably would have been I focus.

My point is simply that a 'faster' lens would not have improved the result.
02-11-2014, 10:21 AM   #387
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QuoteOriginally posted by woodywesty Quote
I think that Ricoh made a huge mistake with the DA560 and I bet the sales will support that.
In fact I think this exactly why the lens is priced that way: so that the few copies sold would recoup x% of cost for developing it.
We may moan as much as we want, the same lens but f/4 would not sell much more if at all * in the current situation of Pentax system*

YMMV.
02-11-2014, 10:32 AM   #388
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
In fact I think this exactly why the lens is priced that way: so that the few copies sold would recoup x% of cost for developing it.
We may moan as much as we want, the same lens but f/4 would not sell much more if at all * in the current situation of Pentax system*

YMMV.
I suspect that you're right. I'm looking forward to tests with the new TC combined with the DA*300mm. This could be a pretty fair birding option for not a lot of money!
02-11-2014, 10:53 AM   #389
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It remains a most puzzling release, the DA560mm.
Certainly since the K3 and now the seemingly high quality 1.4x tc look like a stellar start of a convincing wildlife/birding system. Why not expand on the also very good DA300/4, and produce a 400mm and 500mm prime to go with the 1.4tc for sufficient reach in demanding circumstances?
Also, from what I have seen, the DA560mm is a superbly high resolving lens, but suffers from weaknesses like pronounced purple fringing and harsh bokeh, and at such a focal length these are crucial to be good. The Sigma 500/4.5 that I use myself, is much better in the bokeh department, you can easily shoot a picture full of tight branches, and it will still look together and appealing, whereas the DA560 seems to render such scenes as a nervous and busy image. So it may perform highly in specific circumstances, but I would not want it as a general birding lens.

Pentax can do it, they after all made the fabulous FA600/4.
But they seem to want to do something different, something exotic perhaps. I'd rather they changed course where lenses are concerned, and started producing solid and high quality offers that are a valid investment.
02-11-2014, 01:21 PM   #390
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
It remains a most puzzling release, the DA560mm.
Certainly since the K3 and now the seemingly high quality 1.4x tc look like a stellar start of a convincing wildlife/birding system. Why not expand on the also very good DA300/4, and produce a 400mm and 500mm prime to go with the 1.4tc for sufficient reach in demanding circumstances?
Also, from what I have seen, the DA560mm is a superbly high resolving lens, but suffers from weaknesses like pronounced purple fringing and harsh bokeh, and at such a focal length these are crucial to be good. The Sigma 500/4.5 that I use myself, is much better in the bokeh department, you can easily shoot a picture full of tight branches, and it will still look together and appealing, whereas the DA560 seems to render such scenes as a nervous and busy image. So it may perform highly in specific circumstances, but I would not want it as a general birding lens.

Pentax can do it, they after all made the fabulous FA600/4.
But they seem to want to do something different, something exotic perhaps. I'd rather they changed course where lenses are concerned, and started producing solid and high quality offers that are a valid investment.
The DA560 price will go down when 'proper' long lenses will appear but, and I agree with that, Ricoh probably feels that, on the verge of launching FF camera and with so many mounts they are dedicated to, such lens was a lot more easy and not too much money-losing than producing proper long lenses when FF standard zooms, FF HQ zooms, FF kit zooms need to be planned and produced.

Summary, essentially a free launch. No risk deal, what's not to like (in Ricoh's mind of course).
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