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03-31-2014, 03:46 AM   #496
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
As I have heard the same or very similar account, I believe it is inevitable to come ó rather sooner than later. Nikon is also into this same game of advancement. I expect nothing but an onslaught of thoroughly evolved DSLRs this coming Fotokina, with EVF overlays, more advanced metering, WiFi support, etcetera. And the FF coming further down the line in Nikonís and Canonís lineups.
DSLR bashers will have no idea what struck them.
The major advantage of an all-EVF design is one can utilize a much larger viewing area than optical.

HUD EVF overlays cannot alter this physical reality.

My point is that with a non-DSLR product like the GR, an optional EVF is ideal. One can voluntarily choose to compromise compactness.

03-31-2014, 04:13 AM   #497
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
An optical viewfinder gives you a three point stability in holding the body. Anything long just won't work with holding the body with two hands. For wide or short tele lenses, maybe.

Is there any EVF on the market yet that you can put a 300mm + on it, find and follow a fast moving subject, or try to pick out a small subject in a busy background? It is challenging with a good ovf.
I think the answer is "yes". I played around with a Fujifilm in the store and the EVF has very high resolution... over 2M pixels. I didn't try to track a fast moving subject (there aren't any in a store) but lag was for the most part imperceptible.
03-31-2014, 06:34 AM   #498
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The major advantage of an all-EVF design is one can utilize a much larger viewing area than optical.

HUD EVF overlays cannot alter this physical reality.

My point is that with a non-DSLR product like the GR, an optional EVF is ideal. One can voluntarily choose to compromise compactness.
What is the 'optically limited size' of an OVF?
03-31-2014, 06:39 AM   #499
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
What is the 'optically limited size' of an OVF?
100% coverage at 100% of the sensor size. I suppose they could magnify, but I suppose that is best left to an add on so there isn't any distortion introduced by magnification optics.

03-31-2014, 07:25 AM   #500
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
What is the 'optically limited size' of an OVF?
I take it to mean that since the total available light is fixed, any magnification of the image must also result in an overall dimming of the image.
03-31-2014, 07:49 AM   #501
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
What is the 'optically limited size' of an OVF?
Magnification above 100%. To magnify you require an increase in intermediary glass, reducing brightness and acuity and increasing distortion, thereby eliminating most of the optical advantages. At that point an EVF is probably a superior solution, as we see in cinematography.

Point of fact: EVF's (aka monitors) have been used to track action from hockey pucks and baseballs for decades.

I tried the Sony RX1 EVF and it was very good. Something like that for the Ricoh GR update would be ideal, extending the market reach of such a versatile compact. The GR has huge potential to be the Ricoh flagship mirrorless even without a full ILC option. Fixed, single FL lenses with very little exposure to dust, using crop modes and maybe 1-2 adapters might be the ideal complement to a DSLR line. The GR and RX1 lenses are phenomenally sharp and tuned to their sensors like few ILC lenses. Bulk up to a 24 MP sensor and cropping starts to look very viable in place of ILC's, especially if paired with a suitable EVF.

A GR with that option, plua maybe another GR with a zoom lens, and Ricoh has a solid, high performance, compact system using a large sensor. This is what I hope to see coming down the pipe. I predict a substantial # of current DSLR owners would buy into that as a second system, preferable to the 1" sensor options from Nikon and Sony.
03-31-2014, 07:55 AM   #502
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The GR has huge potential to be the Ricoh flagship mirrorless even without a full ILC option. Fixed, single FL lenses with very little exposure to dust
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/161-ricoh-gr/247121-dust-gr-sensor-options.html
03-31-2014, 08:40 AM   #503
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
100% coverage at 100% of the sensor size. I suppose they could magnify, but I suppose that is best left to an add on so there isn't any distortion introduced by magnification optics.
Olympus E-5 and E-3 had a 100%, 1.15x viewfinder. I don't remember seeing any obvious distortion, but then I wasn't looking for that.
I think Pentax could go slightly over 1x as well, but not much further.

03-31-2014, 09:07 AM   #504
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
100% coverage at 100% of the sensor size. I suppose they could magnify, but I suppose that is best left to an add on so there isn't any distortion introduced by magnification optics.
There's no magical '100%' limit in optics. There's distortion now at less than 100%, there will be distortion at greater than 100%.

---------- Post added 03-31-14 at 09:09 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I take it to mean that since the total available light is fixed, any magnification of the image must also result in an overall dimming of the image.
If you keep the same focusing screen /etc the same, true. It's a tradeoff, sure.
03-31-2014, 09:48 AM - 1 Like   #505
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Point of fact: EVF's (aka monitors) have been used to track action from hockey pucks and baseballs for decades.
15 rows behind my seats for the St. Louis Cardinals baseball team there is an 8' x 8' concrete pad covered by a 1" rubber cushion. I pass by it every time I move to and from my seat. A 4-wheeled carriage sits on that pad, supporting an adjustable column that rises to 6'. Mounted on that column is a massive pan head with two angled arms extending 36' or so to the rear.

That pan head supports a television camera . The camera is approximately 24" long from the lens shade to the EVF shade (most of which is the lens housing). The camera opertor peers into the EVF from approximately 12" distant. This camera location is one of is one of 16 television cameras located strategically around the stadium for every game televised (virtually every one of them).

The camera operator trains that camera on right-handed batters or left-handed pitchers, at the option of the Director. When a left-handed batter appears at the plate the camera opertor is directed to change his focus to the shortstop or first base, or second base if there is a man on first. With years of practice, and a limited range of motion necessary to capture whatever action occurs within his or her responibility, it is a relatively simple matter to "follow" a baseball around a ballpark. It isn't a matter of EVF capability. It is a metter of camera positioning, operator experience and the Director understanding the game, anticipating various possible plays and quickly selecting whichever 'feed(s)' broadcast the best view of the action. Even the 'feed' selection is a fairly routine practice.

Using millions of dollars of equipment and dozens of trained, specialized professionals - the best there are in thier business - to support a claim that an EVF in a DSLR is superior to an OVF is, at best, disingenuous.

EVF's have some advantages - HUD of information is one of them - but for most users of DSLR's the OVF remains a better all-around choice. If Pentax or Nikon successfuly implements a (rumored) HU overlay on an optical viewfinder THAT will be a useful breakthrough, especially if the HUD can be called and dismissed with a simple button push.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-31-2014 at 09:55 AM.
03-31-2014, 10:12 AM   #506
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Using millions of dollars of equipment and dozens of trained, specialized professionals - the best there are in thier business - to support a claim that an EVF in a DSLR is superior to an OVF is, at best, disingenuous.
Oh...come on!

They were tracking slapshots with 1960 monitors. They had grain the size of split peas in a Quebecois soup. In the Forum. While everyone was smoking.

The question was whether one can track sports action using an EVF and the answer is generally yes....been done and done well for decades with small, local stations covering all sorts of events, not even needing mulit-million $ systems and multiple cameras.

I have no problem with a HUD, but it still cannot escape the one advantage of an EVF and that is you can scale up the size of the monitor well beyond what an OVF can ever provide.
03-31-2014, 11:04 AM   #507
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Oh...come on!

They were tracking slapshots with 1960 monitors. They had grain the size of split peas in a Quebecois soup. In the Forum. While everyone was smoking.

The question was whether one can track sports action using an EVF and the answer is generally yes....been done and done well for decades with small, local stations covering all sorts of events, not even needing mulit-million $ systems and multiple cameras.

I have no problem with a HUD, but it still cannot escape the one advantage of an EVF and that is you can scale up the size of the monitor well beyond what an OVF can ever provide.
Oh come on. 1960? My father had one, 9" Motorola painted metal, black and white television with rabbit ears in 1960. And it was still camera angles, experience and anticipation. After all, slap shots only happen along a fairly short arc inside the blue line. Moving the puck around in front of the crease on a power play - yeah, that can be random. Even there a professional camera operator who knows the game anticipates most of the passes. They can read bodies as well as the defenders can.

The question is can a regular user track a bird in flight or her daughter's field hockey shot. Professionals are, well, professsional. They practice. They shoot, what 100,000 frames a year? Of course they can learn to use whatever technology is invented. That doesn't make it right for the 99.999% of the rest of the market.

Scaling up the eye-level monitor to the size of the rear LCD is surely an advantage that flies right in the face of the skinny, shiny, hipster pocket-designs of current MILC's.

Whatever though. It's never worth a spitting match because I don't.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-31-2014 at 11:14 AM.
03-31-2014, 11:46 AM   #508
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
They were tracking slapshots with 1960 monitors. They had grain the size of split peas in a Quebecois soup. In the Forum. While everyone was smoking.
This problem has actually gotten WORSE since those vintage analog systems were prevalent. Back then, there could be essentially zero latency between capture and local display on a monitor -- well, a little bit of time given the frame scan, but very little in practice.

Digital is a whole nother ball game (ahem, puck game?). Capture, readout, buffering, processing, display . . . all that can amount to dozens of milliseconds of latency.
03-31-2014, 01:26 PM   #509
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
EVF's have some advantages - HUD of information is one of them - but for most users of DSLR's the OVF remains a better all-around choice.
The OVF in the LX gave a HUD of the shutter speed and aperture.
All you ever needed (the ISO was fixed in the yellow card slot on the back :-)
03-31-2014, 01:45 PM   #510
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
The OVF in the LX gave a HUD of the shutter speed and aperture.
All you ever needed (the ISO was fixed in the yellow card slot on the back :-)
Yes, my LX does that. My KX does likewise and my old K2, as well as giving me a floating expsoure indication.

I would be very happy to have a small histogram display. I like the electronic level. over/under exposure indicators (blinkies) would be nice. Exposure compensation bar we have now is nice.

Give me all the real estate in the current margins and overlay all those information indicators on the image screen - then let me turn them off for framing,
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