K-mount lens roadmap updated

robjmitchell · 02-08-2014, 04:37 PM

It will be interesting to see what the lens ends up being called. The star designation may just be a teaser, letting us know that the pro quality 70-200/2.8 for FF is on its way. I like the AW designation for the pro lenses. As for price it will have to be at least $400 more than the DA200/2.8

liquid0 · 02-08-2014, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by richard balonglong

Looks like a 70-200mm, I hope it's a constant f/2.8 and not f/4 nor a f/2.8-4...

According to Photography Bay, Pentax will be releasing a 70-200MM, now whether it will be FF or not we will just have to wait and see.

ElJamoquio · 02-08-2014, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by boriscleto

Tamron lenses aren't AW, and this is labeled as a * lens.

Tokina lenses aren't weather sealed either, and yet the DFA 100 is weather sealed.

---------- Post added 02-08-14 at 09:16 PM ----------

Originally posted by rangercarp

And then people will complain that it is not constant aperture!

Indeed. That complaint is a pet peeve of mine...

Kunzite · 02-09-2014, 02:30 AM

But the DFA 100 is not a Tokina rebadge.

kenyee · 02-09-2014, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by liquid0

According to Photography Bay, Pentax will be releasing a 70-200MM, now whether it will be FF or not we will just have to wait and see.

Doesn't make sense for it to be APS-C...it's weird range for APS-C with the 50-135 already, though I do like using my 60-250...

aurele · 02-09-2014, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by kenyee

Doesn't make sense for it to be APS-C...it's weird range for APS-C with the 50-135 already, though I do like using my 60-250...

why is it a weird range for APS ? It's perfectly fine to me

ElJamoquio · 02-09-2014, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

But the DFA 100 is not a Tokina rebadge.

If you say so, but even presuming that, how does the differences in terminology affect the principles at play here?

Lenses with moving surfaces are sealed. Lenses without moving surfaces are sealed. The external shell around the glass can be sealed, but does not have to be, and the optics are unchanged.

I have not yet seen a 'rebadge' where the external surfaces were completely unchanged.

Kunzite · 02-09-2014, 10:25 AM

That is a fact, not something I'm just saying.
Rebadging means just that - changing the badge (and a bit of the external appearance) of a product. The D FA 100mm and its Tokina counterparts are different products, externally and internally; same for the other such lenses.
However, the 18-270 is basically identical (except some exterior detail) to the Tamron, it's made by Tamron - in China; just like the "Schneider-Kreuznach" and the GX-series cameras which were Pentax products (made by Pentax, in Vietnam) rebadged for Samsung.

ElJamoquio · 02-09-2014, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

That is a fact, not something I'm just saying.
Rebadging means just that - changing the badge (and a bit of the external appearance) of a product.

If you want to be super-tedious, we could take rebadging to mean changing JUST the badge. Then we'd say there are no rebadged Pentax lenses.

That takes a word from meaningful to useless.

The tokina/pentax 'collaborative' lenses are rebadged, one way or another.

Kunzite · 02-09-2014, 11:47 AM

Again: rebadging means changing the badge and maybe the (external) appearance, but essentially we're talking about the same product.
Two different lenses only sharing the optical design are not one other's rebadge. I don't understand why are you so insistently claiming otherwise.

And by the way, I clearly mentioned the external appearance in my previous post, and also I gave examples of rebadged products related to Pentax. Who is super-tedious? Who is attempting to distort not only well-known facts, but also what the others are saying?

ElJamoquio · 02-09-2014, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Again: rebadging means changing the badge and maybe the (external) appearance, but essentially we're talking about the same product.
Two different lenses only sharing the optical design are not one other's rebadge. I don't understand why are you so insistently claiming otherwise.

I also do not know why you are so insistently claiming they aren't rebadges. I have some of those rebadged lenses, they're great. It doesn't diminish the lenses in any way to recognize their status as re-badges. I'd love to have a rebadged Nikon 600mm F/4. Of course Pentax would charge 50% more, so maybe I changed my mind.

IchabodCrane · 02-09-2014, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Again: rebadging means changing the badge and maybe the (external) appearance, but essentially we're talking about the same product.
Two different lenses only sharing the optical design are not one other's rebadge. I don't understand why are you so insistently claiming otherwise.

And by the way, I clearly mentioned the external appearance in my previous post, and also I gave examples of rebadged products related to Pentax. Who is super-tedious? Who is attempting to distort not only well-known facts, but also what the others are saying?

If that's the definition of rebadging then maybe we're using the wrong word to start with. I think the point several here have made centers around Pentax, by agreement, using the optical design of a third-party lens designer/manufacturer.

mikemike · 02-09-2014, 12:24 PM

If I cook turtle soup using Emeril Laggase's recipe, is my soup a rebadge of his soup? No.

If I order some soup to go and then serve it in my bowls as if I cooked it myself then my soup is a rebadge.

D1N0 · 02-09-2014, 12:44 PM

When you design a lens together with another company in a joint venture en sell in under different brands is different from ordering a lens from another company to sell it under your own brand name. So the Tokina and Tamron differ in that. You could call the first joint badging or co-badging and the latter rebadging.

Kunzite · 02-09-2014, 12:59 PM

"Badge engineering or rebadging is the application of a different brand or trademark to an existing product (e.g., an automobile) and subsequently marketing the variant as a distinct product. Due to the high cost of designing and engineering a new model or establishing a brand (which may take many years to gain acceptance), it is less expensive to rebadge a product once or multiple times than to create different models. The term is a misnomer in that little actual engineering takes place."
Badge engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What other definition do you think we should use? One that calls a Pentax-made lens with Pentax-designed optics a "Tokina rebadge"?

By the way, here's the patent for the 16-50:
Espacenet - Original document
And this one, for the 50-135:
Espacenet - Original document
Asignee: Pentax Corporation.

Now, tell me, by which standards are those Tokina rebadges?

02-09-2014, 11:43 AM	#114
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Kunzite That is a fact, not something I'm just saying. Rebadging means just that - changing the badge (and a bit of the external appearance) of a product. If you want to be super-tedious, we could take rebadging to mean changing JUST the badge. Then we'd say there are no rebadged Pentax lenses. That takes a word from meaningful to useless. The tokina/pentax 'collaborative' lenses are rebadged, one way or another. Last edited by ElJamoquio; 02-09-2014 at 11:52 AM.

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02-08-2014, 04:37 PM	#106
robjmitchell Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Melbourne Aus Posts: 1,776	It will be interesting to see what the lens ends up being called. The star designation may just be a teaser, letting us know that the pro quality 70-200/2.8 for FF is on its way. I like the AW designation for the pro lenses. As for price it will have to be at least $400 more than the DA200/2.8

02-08-2014, 05:27 PM	#107
liquid0 Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 58	Originally posted by richard balonglong Looks like a 70-200mm, I hope it's a constant f/2.8 and not f/4 nor a f/2.8-4... According to Photography Bay, Pentax will be releasing a 70-200MM, now whether it will be FF or not we will just have to wait and see.

02-08-2014, 10:13 PM	#108
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by boriscleto Tamron lenses aren't AW, and this is labeled as a * lens. Tokina lenses aren't weather sealed either, and yet the DFA 100 is weather sealed. ---------- Post added 02-08-14 at 09:16 PM ---------- Originally posted by rangercarp And then people will complain that it is not constant aperture! Indeed. That complaint is a pet peeve of mine...

02-09-2014, 02:30 AM	#109
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	But the DFA 100 is not a Tokina rebadge.

02-09-2014, 09:53 AM	#110
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	Originally posted by liquid0 According to Photography Bay, Pentax will be releasing a 70-200MM, now whether it will be FF or not we will just have to wait and see. Doesn't make sense for it to be APS-C...it's weird range for APS-C with the 50-135 already, though I do like using my 60-250...

02-09-2014, 10:01 AM	#111
aurele Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Paris, France Photos: Albums Posts: 3,217	Originally posted by kenyee Doesn't make sense for it to be APS-C...it's weird range for APS-C with the 50-135 already, though I do like using my 60-250... why is it a weird range for APS ? It's perfectly fine to me

02-09-2014, 10:15 AM	#112
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Kunzite But the DFA 100 is not a Tokina rebadge. If you say so, but even presuming that, how does the differences in terminology affect the principles at play here? Lenses with moving surfaces are sealed. Lenses without moving surfaces are sealed. The external shell around the glass can be sealed, but does not have to be, and the optics are unchanged. I have not yet seen a 'rebadge' where the external surfaces were completely unchanged.

02-09-2014, 10:25 AM	#113
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	That is a fact, not something I'm just saying. Rebadging means just that - changing the badge (and a bit of the external appearance) of a product. The D FA 100mm and its Tokina counterparts are different products, externally and internally; same for the other such lenses. However, the 18-270 is basically identical (except some exterior detail) to the Tamron, it's made by Tamron - in China; just like the "Schneider-Kreuznach" and the GX-series cameras which were Pentax products (made by Pentax, in Vietnam) rebadged for Samsung.

02-09-2014, 11:47 AM	#115
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Again: rebadging means changing the badge and maybe the (external) appearance, but essentially we're talking about the same product. Two different lenses only sharing the optical design are not one other's rebadge. I don't understand why are you so insistently claiming otherwise. And by the way, I clearly mentioned the external appearance in my previous post, and also I gave examples of rebadged products related to Pentax. Who is super-tedious? Who is attempting to distort not only well-known facts, but also what the others are saying?

02-09-2014, 11:54 AM	#116
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Kunzite Again: rebadging means changing the badge and maybe the (external) appearance, but essentially we're talking about the same product. Two different lenses only sharing the optical design are not one other's rebadge. I don't understand why are you so insistently claiming otherwise. I also do not know why you are so insistently claiming they aren't rebadges. I have some of those rebadged lenses, they're great. It doesn't diminish the lenses in any way to recognize their status as re-badges. I'd love to have a rebadged Nikon 600mm F/4. Of course Pentax would charge 50% more, so maybe I changed my mind.

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02-09-2014, 12:19 PM	#117
IchabodCrane Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,728	Originally posted by Kunzite Again: rebadging means changing the badge and maybe the (external) appearance, but essentially we're talking about the same product. Two different lenses only sharing the optical design are not one other's rebadge. I don't understand why are you so insistently claiming otherwise. And by the way, I clearly mentioned the external appearance in my previous post, and also I gave examples of rebadged products related to Pentax. Who is super-tedious? Who is attempting to distort not only well-known facts, but also what the others are saying? If that's the definition of rebadging then maybe we're using the wrong word to start with. I think the point several here have made centers around Pentax, by agreement, using the optical design of a third-party lens designer/manufacturer.

02-09-2014, 12:24 PM	#118
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	If I cook turtle soup using Emeril Laggase's recipe, is my soup a rebadge of his soup? No. If I order some soup to go and then serve it in my bowls as if I cooked it myself then my soup is a rebadge.

02-09-2014, 12:44 PM	#119
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	When you design a lens together with another company in a joint venture en sell in under different brands is different from ordering a lens from another company to sell it under your own brand name. So the Tokina and Tamron differ in that. You could call the first joint badging or co-badging and the latter rebadging.

02-09-2014, 12:59 PM	#120
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	"Badge engineering or rebadging is the application of a different brand or trademark to an existing product (e.g., an automobile) and subsequently marketing the variant as a distinct product. Due to the high cost of designing and engineering a new model or establishing a brand (which may take many years to gain acceptance), it is less expensive to rebadge a product once or multiple times than to create different models. The term is a misnomer in that little actual engineering takes place." Badge engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia What other definition do you think we should use? One that calls a Pentax-made lens with Pentax-designed optics a "Tokina rebadge"? By the way, here's the patent for the 16-50: Espacenet - Original document And this one, for the 50-135: Espacenet - Original document Asignee: Pentax Corporation. Now, tell me, by which standards are those Tokina rebadges?