K-mount lens roadmap updated

ElJamoquio · 02-09-2014, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

"Badge engineering or rebadging is the application of a different brand or trademark to an existing product (e.g., an automobile) and subsequently marketing the variant as a distinct product. Due to the high cost of designing and engineering a new model or establishing a brand (which may take many years to gain acceptance), it is less expensive to rebadge a product once or multiple times than to create different models. The term is a misnomer in that little actual engineering takes place."
Badge engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What other definition do you think we should use? One that calls a Pentax-made lens with Pentax-designed optics a "Tokina rebadge"?

By the way, here's the patent for the 16-50:
Espacenet - Original document
And this one, for the 50-135:
Espacenet - Original document
Asignee: Pentax Corporation.

Your source is awesome. Thanks a million.

I wrote some of that source. Check the edit history.

Quote:

Now, tell me, by which standards are those Tokina rebadges?

'one way or another'.

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 02-09-2014 at 03:09 PM.

mikemike · 02-09-2014, 02:59 PM

An important factor though is whether or not the lenses are made on the same line with the same parts, elements, coatings, etc... If they just share the same optical formula but were made with different glass and different coating there is a lot of room for variation in final results.

ElJamoquio · 02-09-2014, 03:13 PM

Different elements = NOT a rebadge.
Different coatings, in my opinion, often makes for a rebadge. With modern coatings the difference between 99% and 99.2% is primarily marketing.
Different outer shell = Rebadge IMO.

The optical design is 99% of the lens. You can put a quick shift on it - and I love quick shift - and call it a Cimarron but it's still a rebadge.

mikemike · 02-09-2014, 03:18 PM

I agree, but it is quite plausible that one brand might use better grades of glass for their elements or use better types of elements like with aspherical elements using ground glass instead of molded or hybrid. It is probably impossible to tell for certain though without it being expressly noted or taking the lenses apart and inspecting the elements by someone who is an expert in optical glass.

Kunzite · 02-09-2014, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Your source is awesome. Thanks a million.

I wrote some of that source. Check the edit history.

Interesting. Then, why not using it?

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

'one way or another'.

I provided proof that those are Pentax designs, and we know as a fact they're made in by Pentax, in Vietnam, and their internal and external components are nothing like the Tokinas. Yet you're still saying this?
I give up, it's pointless.

asahi man · 02-09-2014, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Tokina lenses aren't weather sealed either, and yet the DFA 100 is weather sealed.

---------- Post added 02-08-14 at 09:16 PM ----------

Indeed. That complaint is a pet peeve of mine...

Tamron 2,8 70-200 and 2,8 24-70 are using the same WR/AW quality range like Pentax * lenses.
Maybe it is a gift from Mr Jun Hirakawa,ex Pentax optic specialist and fired under Hoya!!!
Now he is a Tamron member ;-)

Pentax 16-50 and 50-135 are 100% made by Pentax in the Vietnam Factory,Tokina production is an own thing.
The patents are made under Pentax,before Hoya.
Some of the wideangles are Tokina Patents and are produced in the own Factorys.
The Pentax 12-24 is a Tokina Patent,but built in own Factorys.
The development is a 50/50 thng between Pentax and Hoya.
This relationship is not more exist.

Best regards

ElJamoquio · 02-09-2014, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Interesting. Then, why not using it?

I am. Thanks for the entertainment.

Originally posted by Kunzite

I provided proof that those are Pentax designs, and we know as a fact they're made in by Pentax, in Vietnam, and their internal and external components are nothing like the Tokinas. Yet you're still saying this?
I give up, it's pointless.

'one way or another'.

one way: pentax rebadges lens: 12-24, 18-250/270, etc
another way: tokina rebadges 16-50, etc.

Last edited by Ash; 02-09-2014 at 05:18 PM.

asahi man · 02-09-2014, 03:38 PM

But more interesting is this Patent ;-)
ROTARY ACTUATOR

Kunzite · 02-09-2014, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

'one way or another'.

one way: pentax rebadges lens: 12-24, 18-250/270, etc
another way: tokina rebadges 16-50, etc.

Try being polite next time.

Using the same standards, the Tokina 16-50 is not a rebadged Pentax either; while the Tamron is a perfect example of a rebadge. But, as I said, it's pointless.

.

---------- Post added 10-02-14 at 01:30 AM ----------

Originally posted by asahi man

But more interesting is this Patent ;-)
ROTARY ACTUATOR

I wonder if we'll see that in some lenses. Pretty old patent, but could allow them to get speed-wise on par with the fastest ring-type USM?

asahi man · 02-09-2014, 04:35 PM

The Tamron is 100% produced in the Tamron factory,one of them.
The Patent above is a new motordrive,little bit like the Canon Ring USM.
But not the same type.
I think we will see a drive like this in the new Pro* Line,maybe end of 2014.

Kunzite · 02-09-2014, 04:41 PM

Indeed, it's different technology - non-piezo, but a magnetic drive. Anyway it would eliminate the gears and other such stuff.

Blue · 02-09-2014, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

If you say so, but even presuming that, how does the differences in terminology affect the principles at play here?

Lenses with moving surfaces are sealed. Lenses without moving surfaces are sealed. The external shell around the glass can be sealed, but does not have to be, and the optics are unchanged.

I have not yet seen a 'rebadge' where the external surfaces were completely unchanged.

The D FA 100/2.8 WR wasn't a rebadge from Tokina nor was its predecessor, the D FA 100/2.8. Before the Hoya days, Pentax had various collaborations with Tokina, but during the Hoya years, Hoya dropped the k-mount. If you look, you will see that Tokina has a lens based on the DA 35/2.8 LTD Macro.

mee · 02-09-2014, 05:35 PM

Is there any word on Tokina releasing anything for Pentax in the not-too-distant future? I see what looks to be around a 12-28mm on the roadmap.. but I also see Tokina has a new 12-28mm F/4 out now.. wonder if they will share that with us. Btw the Tokina is still an APS-C lens..

Alizarine · 02-09-2014, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by asahi man

I think we will see a drive like this in the new Pro* Line,maybe end of 2014.

I do hope to see it in the red (and yellow) stuff in the bottom of the roadmap

thibs · 02-09-2014, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Different elements = NOT a rebadge.
Different coatings, in my opinion, often makes for a rebadge. With modern coatings the difference between 99% and 99.2% is primarily marketing.
Different outer shell = Rebadge IMO.

The optical design is 99% of the lens. You can put a quick shift on it - and I love quick shift - and call it a Cimarron but it's still a rebadge.

Well, by that count the SMC-M 50/1.4, the A50/1.4, the F50/1.4 and FA50/1.4 are all rebadged aren't they ?

02-09-2014, 03:32 PM	#126
asahi man Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Photos: Albums Posts: 324	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Tokina lenses aren't weather sealed either, and yet the DFA 100 is weather sealed. ---------- Post added 02-08-14 at 09:16 PM ---------- Indeed. That complaint is a pet peeve of mine... Tamron 2,8 70-200 and 2,8 24-70 are using the same WR/AW quality range like Pentax * lenses. Maybe it is a gift from Mr Jun Hirakawa,ex Pentax optic specialist and fired under Hoya!!! Now he is a Tamron member ;-) Pentax 16-50 and 50-135 are 100% made by Pentax in the Vietnam Factory,Tokina production is an own thing. The patents are made under Pentax,before Hoya. Some of the wideangles are Tokina Patents and are produced in the own Factorys. The Pentax 12-24 is a Tokina Patent,but built in own Factorys. The development is a 50/50 thng between Pentax and Hoya. This relationship is not more exist. Best regards Last edited by asahi man; 02-09-2014 at 04:10 PM.

02-09-2014, 04:27 PM	#129
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by ElJamoquio 'one way or another'. one way: pentax rebadges lens: 12-24, 18-250/270, etc another way: tokina rebadges 16-50, etc. Try being polite next time. Using the same standards, the Tokina 16-50 is not a rebadged Pentax either; while the Tamron is a perfect example of a rebadge. But, as I said, it's pointless. . ---------- Post added 10-02-14 at 01:30 AM ---------- Originally posted by asahi man But more interesting is this Patent ;-) ROTARY ACTUATOR I wonder if we'll see that in some lenses. Pretty old patent, but could allow them to get speed-wise on par with the fastest ring-type USM? Last edited by Ash; 02-09-2014 at 05:16 PM.

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02-09-2014, 02:58 PM	#121
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Kunzite "Badge engineering or rebadging is the application of a different brand or trademark to an existing product (e.g., an automobile) and subsequently marketing the variant as a distinct product. Due to the high cost of designing and engineering a new model or establishing a brand (which may take many years to gain acceptance), it is less expensive to rebadge a product once or multiple times than to create different models. The term is a misnomer in that little actual engineering takes place." Badge engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia What other definition do you think we should use? One that calls a Pentax-made lens with Pentax-designed optics a "Tokina rebadge"? By the way, here's the patent for the 16-50: Espacenet - Original document And this one, for the 50-135: Espacenet - Original document Asignee: Pentax Corporation. Your source is awesome. Thanks a million. I wrote some of that source. Check the edit history. Quote: Now, tell me, by which standards are those Tokina rebadges? 'one way or another'. Last edited by ElJamoquio; 02-09-2014 at 03:09 PM.

02-09-2014, 02:59 PM	#122
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	An important factor though is whether or not the lenses are made on the same line with the same parts, elements, coatings, etc... If they just share the same optical formula but were made with different glass and different coating there is a lot of room for variation in final results.

02-09-2014, 03:13 PM	#123
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Different elements = NOT a rebadge. Different coatings, in my opinion, often makes for a rebadge. With modern coatings the difference between 99% and 99.2% is primarily marketing. Different outer shell = Rebadge IMO. The optical design is 99% of the lens. You can put a quick shift on it - and I love quick shift - and call it a Cimarron but it's still a rebadge.

02-09-2014, 03:18 PM	#124
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	I agree, but it is quite plausible that one brand might use better grades of glass for their elements or use better types of elements like with aspherical elements using ground glass instead of molded or hybrid. It is probably impossible to tell for certain though without it being expressly noted or taking the lenses apart and inspecting the elements by someone who is an expert in optical glass.

02-09-2014, 03:28 PM	#125
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Your source is awesome. Thanks a million. I wrote some of that source. Check the edit history. Interesting. Then, why not using it? Originally posted by ElJamoquio 'one way or another'. I provided proof that those are Pentax designs, and we know as a fact they're made in by Pentax, in Vietnam, and their internal and external components are nothing like the Tokinas. Yet you're still saying this? I give up, it's pointless.

02-09-2014, 03:34 PM	#127
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Kunzite Interesting. Then, why not using it? I am. Thanks for the entertainment. Originally posted by Kunzite I provided proof that those are Pentax designs, and we know as a fact they're made in by Pentax, in Vietnam, and their internal and external components are nothing like the Tokinas. Yet you're still saying this? I give up, it's pointless. 'one way or another'. one way: pentax rebadges lens: 12-24, 18-250/270, etc another way: tokina rebadges 16-50, etc. Last edited by Ash; 02-09-2014 at 05:18 PM.

02-09-2014, 03:38 PM	#128
asahi man Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Photos: Albums Posts: 324	But more interesting is this Patent ;-) ROTARY ACTUATOR

02-09-2014, 04:35 PM	#130
asahi man Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Photos: Albums Posts: 324	The Tamron is 100% produced in the Tamron factory,one of them. The Patent above is a new motordrive,little bit like the Canon Ring USM. But not the same type. I think we will see a drive like this in the new Pro* Line,maybe end of 2014.

02-09-2014, 04:41 PM	#131
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Indeed, it's different technology - non-piezo, but a magnetic drive. Anyway it would eliminate the gears and other such stuff.

02-09-2014, 05:15 PM	#132
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by ElJamoquio If you say so, but even presuming that, how does the differences in terminology affect the principles at play here? Lenses with moving surfaces are sealed. Lenses without moving surfaces are sealed. The external shell around the glass can be sealed, but does not have to be, and the optics are unchanged. I have not yet seen a 'rebadge' where the external surfaces were completely unchanged. The D FA 100/2.8 WR wasn't a rebadge from Tokina nor was its predecessor, the D FA 100/2.8. Before the Hoya days, Pentax had various collaborations with Tokina, but during the Hoya years, Hoya dropped the k-mount. If you look, you will see that Tokina has a lens based on the DA 35/2.8 LTD Macro.

02-09-2014, 05:35 PM	#133
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Is there any word on Tokina releasing anything for Pentax in the not-too-distant future? I see what looks to be around a 12-28mm on the roadmap.. but I also see Tokina has a new 12-28mm F/4 out now.. wonder if they will share that with us. Btw the Tokina is still an APS-C lens..

02-09-2014, 06:20 PM	#134
Alizarine Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Manila Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,185	Originally posted by asahi man I think we will see a drive like this in the new Pro* Line,maybe end of 2014. I do hope to see it in the red (and yellow) stuff in the bottom of the roadmap

02-09-2014, 10:12 PM	#135
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Different elements = NOT a rebadge. Different coatings, in my opinion, often makes for a rebadge. With modern coatings the difference between 99% and 99.2% is primarily marketing. Different outer shell = Rebadge IMO. The optical design is 99% of the lens. You can put a quick shift on it - and I love quick shift - and call it a Cimarron but it's still a rebadge. Well, by that count the SMC-M 50/1.4, the A50/1.4, the F50/1.4 and FA50/1.4 are all rebadged aren't they ?