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03-03-2014, 08:15 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
This 10% of the market being FF is a red herring, too. The only important figure is the percentage represented by FF cameras of the market segments that Pentax/Ricoh are consciously trying to sell into. ...
Exactly. It is a red herring, and a cheap excuse for a more valuable point they want to remain hidden. The FF from Pentax is a threat to Pentax lens sales, as 15+ million lenses in 135 format were already bought long time ago. They make no excuse for anyone to buy new lenses which are necessary for Ricoh Imaging to go forward.

So in the interim, and while it deliberately delays the FF, Ricoh Imaging may tease with lenses that are good focal lengths on both APS-C and FF cameras. Say, a 70-200 is an excellent and popular lens on crop cameras too, it becomes 100-300, and it does not overlap with anything in the DA range. It will be priced above DA 60-250 and everything is still ok, as people can choose either.

It is all about lenses.

03-03-2014, 09:47 PM   #137
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Can't agree at all.

90+% of those legacy lenses are perfectly useable (and are being used) on aan APS-C body. I've sold tons of 50mm lenses, which would seem to be a "white elephant" length at APS-C, to APS-C owners.

And of the Pentax lenses out there, I'd imagine at least 90-95%% are MF lenses. Do you really think there are that many F and FA AF (let alone Silent motor AF) lenses on the market? What's more, it's pretty clear that many of the ones that are out there would have to be pried form their owners' cold dead hands to be available to the market at large.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Exactly. It is a red herring, and a cheap excuse for a more valuable point they want to remain hidden. The FF from Pentax is a threat to Pentax lens sales, as 15+ million lenses in 135 format were already bought long time ago. They make no excuse for anyone to buy new lenses which are necessary for Ricoh Imaging to go forward..


---------- Post added 03-03-14 at 09:56 PM ----------

"Birders and long range wildlifers" are a miniscule segment of the pro market, which by and large consists of portraitiists and wedding photographers, who overwhelmingly are shooting FF, particularly the canon 5D line, mostly for DR and light-gathering capabiliies first, and for DOF control secondarily.

I personally don't have those needs and so still fall comfortably within Pentax's niche, but calling the FF "not the preferred pro sensor" willfully ignores what the pro market really is. In the grand scheme of things, there are very few professional wildlife photographers and fashion shooters out there.

QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
I worked in Japan for years and speak the language...

When a Japanese speaker says, "we will be looking into that in the future" that means no....

"We are studying it" or "R&D is working on" it means they have NOT made a decision.

We may see a next gen APSc that blows everyone away, before any FF since the 645D next gen handles "pros"...

Unless they are doing landscapes, FF is NOT the preferred "pro" sensor, they are using 24mp APSC to capitalize on crops. Birders and long range wildlifers already know you need 50mp in a FF 24x36 to be as clean. Software (fractals, etal) can do anything a "pro needs"... APS-c rules. Pentax is "ahead" of the marketers and "wannabe" buyers in bang for the buck, size, etc. They need longer lenses and a longer macro and it gets easy to NOT go FF.

I love being the wet blanket on this topic...
03-03-2014, 11:10 PM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by dcshooter Quote
Can't agree at all.

90+% of those legacy lenses are perfectly useable (and are being used) on aan APS-C body. I've sold tons of 50mm lenses, which would seem to be a "white elephant" length at APS-C, to APS-C owners.

And of the Pentax lenses out there, I'd imagine at least 90-95%% are MF lenses. Do you really think there are that many F and FA AF (let alone Silent motor AF) lenses on the market? What's more, it's pretty clear that many of the ones that are out there would have to be pried form their owners' cold dead hands to be available to the market at large.
Pentax gets zero dollars from the second-hand market / used lens market. Or, from all legacy lenses they get nothing in return. They cannot sell any FF camera at high enough prices and sufficient profits to sell enough of cameras alone and not worry much about new lenses.

Leica can do that – earn profit from camera sales — but Pentax cannot. Pentax is immediately compared to its peers, Nikon and Canon, and Pentax loses immediately if their camera is twice as expensive to compensate on lost sales of lenses. Nikon and Canon have no such problems. They have invested bare minimum in APS-C and they have tons of current and new FF lenses.

But Pentax must sell new lenses together with all new cameras, and if there is a camera that may exploit old lenses (found at bargain prices) better than any current APS-C camera, then:

a) they won't sell enough of FF cameras to cover the expense and earn anything
b) the sales of their current lenses will suffer, including the DA lenses, as many people would choose FF instead of a K-3.

However you turn it, the legacy lenses are a good bragging right, but in reality a practical handicap and PITA for Pentax.

Last edited by Uluru; 03-03-2014 at 11:42 PM.
03-03-2014, 11:36 PM   #139
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I see Pentax full frame as a niche offering designed to stop the bleeding. Something equivalent to the K3 in function and handling with the benefits to IQ that a larger sensor brings.

>"Birders and long range wildlifers" are a miniscule segment of the pro market,

This is a serious hobbyist market. Anyone who wants to get good shots ends up spending quite a bit of money, and the endeavor is hard on the equipment. Full frame offers no advantage. It is surprising how many people I run across who have spent quite a bit of money to do this. It isn't 'pro', but I suspect most wildlife photographers have more invested in their equipment than most wedding photographers.

03-04-2014, 01:00 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Sorry Mono, I'm not buying your endless excuses of their conduct. I indeed think you are going too far. There is absolutely no reason for them to launch a second 645D camera before the first FF camera if things were as we think they are.
That's a very strong statement... could you tell us why there is "absolutely" no reason?
IMO delaying the 645D 2014 would be a mistake, they would lose ground in a market where they can be competitive. So you must give us a reason strong enough to make it worth (and explain how this would benefit the FF).

You haven't read monochrome's post, it you think it's "endless excuses". Ask yourself, what did he actually said? (not what you wanted to read) Stuff like "There will be a FF camera", perhaps?
Yet you're making his point wonderfully. "Your priorities are a FF body. Right now.. FULL STOP.". Funny thing, you don't even believe it can work (because for you FF is important for the wrong reason - legacy lenses, and not much else); yet you're angry they're not giving up on the medium format market for it? Oh, boy...
03-04-2014, 02:11 AM   #141
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Perhaps Pentax's view of the world is centre-weighted towards Japan? If so, then it makes perfect sense to release a new 645D before anything else. My understanding is that they have quite a fan club for that system over there. Some here have suggested that sales of the 645 system to institutions in Japan plays a part too. In the same way it makes perfect sense to release a DA 20-40mm before anything else, because it replaces the FA 20-35mm which was still on sale there until recently. Same is true for choosing a 28mm for the Ricoh GR rather than something longer, like a 35mm. And again, for developing the Q, very much a camera for their side of the world, not ours. From our perspective it all looks a little odd, but we live on the other side of the world from Pentax HQ. Just because things make little sense to us doesn't mean they make won't sense somewhere else down the line.

If you really want FF, then there is a mountain of FF equipment you can buy today, both new or through the now-huge second-hand market since FF has been an ordinary and perfectly normal part of life for a long time now. There's no need to watch more episodes of the "FF? Yes, No, Maybe" saga and then write your review of the latest twists of the plot on Pentax Forums. You can be taking pictures with an FF camera this afternoon instead of fiddling with the dials on your television.

Last edited by mecrox; 03-04-2014 at 06:24 AM.
03-04-2014, 02:36 AM   #142
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Lets give the Pentax guys some credit for once. They've marketed worlds best APS-C system. And marketed worlds most affordable (although still not affordable enough for me. LOL) MF system. Which also happens to not lack any quality either. Lets face it, if they wanted to issue an FF system, we would already be shooting with it.
03-04-2014, 03:15 AM   #143
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Regarding "legacy is bad": I think otherwise, that it's a tremendous advantage.

There's the advantage of being able to use your old lenses, but I'm not thinking of those unwilling to buy new ones - those won't be persuaded by force. For people like myself, it would make the transition easier: I already have few FF-compatible lenses which I'd want to use, but for sure I would buy new ones as well (maybe replace the old lenses). Making things easier means more FF customers and more sales, I'd say; not less.

But the main thing is a much larger market for the FF lenses. I'm talking about the APS-C, which is the dominant DSLR segment; indeed, instead of targeting a lens for FF only, it can be targeted at both the niche FF and the mainstream APS-C.

IMO that is the one thing that could make the Pentax FF possible.

03-04-2014, 03:50 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Pentax gets zero dollars from the second-hand market / used lens market. Or, from all legacy lenses they get nothing in return. .
On the contrary, its worth a fortune. Those people with those lenses buy Pentax cameras and the odd new lens. The K-mount legacy is perhaps whats most valuable asset with Pentax for Ricoh...
03-04-2014, 04:19 AM   #145
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Legacy lens support is 100% not a bad thing. Look at the most popular milcs like the NEX system for example. That's not only backwards compatible, but also sideways and diagonally. Nevertheless it sells well, and its users don't stick to manual focus only, they want a few autofocus lenses as well.
03-04-2014, 05:16 AM   #146
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The legacy is not a problem as stated by Uluru. It is almost 100% positive because, indeed, people having those lenses will buy an FF and those not having such lenses can get them for cheap. So starting an FF system would be VERY cheap (compared to Canikon) BUT....

Pentax has no take measures so the new FF line lenses will sell. Those lenses need to offer something previous one didn't.

Those might be:
* acceptable price (if they didn't jack up the prices months ago, the difference would have been huge... just an example)
* Weather sealing
* Silent AND fast focussing (if they use their new AF system, it might explain some of the delay for the new lenses)
* IQ
* General mechanical quality
* lens IS (who knows?)
* compactness

This list are just ideas of course and depending on what they wanna do with a specific lens, they'll pic some of them.
Anyway, they need to offer something which will make us buy the new lens rather than the previous ones.
03-04-2014, 07:00 AM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Pentax has no take measures so the new FF line lenses will sell. Those lenses need to offer something previous one didn't.
The presence of old lenses is a false problem, I think, It might indeed work against Pentax in some cases, but in many others it will have a positive contribution: they can be the reason to choose a Pentax FF instead of other brand. And their number won't increase - how many of those 20 million lenses are a. suitable for use with high resolution digital cameras and b. still working?
03-04-2014, 07:45 AM   #148
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I think Ricoh will want their FF system to be a really credible challenger to Canon and Nikon. If they just wanted to keep a nominal presence in the camera market, they could have done that with their Ricoh brand. By acquiring Pentax, they signalled that they mean to challenge the big players.

What do they need to challenge Canon and Nikon? Probably FF bodies at two price points, a whole new range of zooms that outperform their competitors, the missing primes, other accessories and better marketing, distribution and professional support services. They need all this soon after release. This is a huge undertaking, but I think the 70-200 on the roadmap is going to be the first building block of this new system.

As for the 645D II release, it is clearly happening now because of the availability of the new sensor. It has nothing to do with it being prioritised over FF.
03-04-2014, 08:08 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Pentax gets zero dollars from the second-hand market / used lens market. Or, from all legacy lenses they get nothing in return. They cannot sell any FF camera at high enough prices and sufficient profits to sell enough of cameras alone and not worry much about new lenses.

It makes sense to me. But I'm thinking for a company that has zero presence in the Digi FF market, it will be an asset.... a foot in the door to getting their system out in the market. I think, maybe, the first FF body they release (if they release one) will be deemed a success if it is highly rated and in the hands of many... somewhat regardless of profit. Maybe by the time the second FF body is released, their newer FF lens collection will be mature enough and different enough to warrant some buys. Plus, regardless of what their strategy, I'm sure the more favored older lenses will increase in price, making the newer lenses look a little more attractive.
03-04-2014, 08:12 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
As for the 645D II release, it is clearly happening now because of the availability of the new sensor. It has nothing to do with it being prioritised over FF.
They are sole proprietors of the low end digital medium format market. Their competition just released a body that costs $25k. Sony will want to sell more of these sensors, will be encouraging other vendors to produce a body. Pentax has to get their body out soon to hold this market.

I'd say this is a priority compared to full frame. The markers have already been set in that marketplace, I don't think they want to (or can) go toe to toe with Sony mirrorless, and the full frame dslr market is pretty crowded.

What they are doing makes perfect sense from their revenue standpoint. They have missed the initial enthusiastic first adopter wave of full frame. They may very well be able to get better prices on the sensors if they wait a little while.

With the shrinking market there is a possibility that people will go out of business. Their offering has to make sense. Uluru describes one of their challenges. They have repeatedly said that they will have a unique offering in this marketplace. They know what they are facing and they have to get it right.
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