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03-11-2014, 07:26 AM - 1 Like   #226
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I guess the fact that they leave the mount crippled because most of us don't care, never really comes into play around here?

03-11-2014, 07:53 AM   #227
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Your mirror boxes already can fit full frame mirrors and sensors. The size of the camera can remain unchanged.
03-11-2014, 09:17 AM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Your mirror boxes already can fit full frame mirrors and sensors. The size of the camera can remain unchanged.
I think that's mostly true. The prism hump probably needs to get larger, because the APS-C viewfinder actually is smaller than FF. But the registration distance is the same, and the lens mount diameter is the same, so most of the body won't have to change, unless some additional space is needed for a larger and more robust SR mechanism and heatsink for the larger sensor.
03-11-2014, 09:34 AM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Your mirror boxes already can fit full frame mirrors and sensors. The size of the camera can remain unchanged.
Bigger prism. Bigger motor to drive bigger mirror. Bigger motor to drive bigger shutter. Bigger SR to move bigger sensor. Bigger data pipeline to move 2X data. Bigger battery to feed all of it.

FF *could* be made leaving most of those things the same size, but frame rate, responsiveness and reliability would all be lower than its APSC counterpart.

03-11-2014, 09:45 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
Bigger prism. Bigger motor to drive bigger mirror. Bigger motor to drive bigger shutter. Bigger SR to move bigger sensor. Bigger data pipeline to move 2X data. Bigger battery to feed all of it.

FF *could* be made leaving most of those things the same size, but frame rate, responsiveness and reliability would all be lower than its APSC counterpart.
Those don't necessarily need to change. The rest of the electronics won't scale (size or power wise) with sensor size. The main drain on the battery, LCD stays the same size. With the mechanical stuff I doubt it will be a case of bigger motors more so than that they are getting displaced by the space required for the bigger sensor. I expect that a FF will be larger than an APS-C camera but not by too much.
03-11-2014, 09:48 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
but frame rate, responsiveness and reliability would all be lower than its APSC counterpart.
Yes to frame rate. 'responsiveness' change would be in the millisecond range. Pro bodies are reliable right now, so I see no reason why Pentax wouldn't be competitive.
03-11-2014, 10:19 AM   #232
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QuoteQuote:
I guess the fact that they leave the mount crippled because most of us don't care, never really comes into play around here?
Most of the world's population does not care about DSLRs.
Nevertheless, Ricoh/Pentax builds such cameras .

Most of us also don't care about video options .

I do no care about live preview, video, internal flash, SDM/DC, WR, etc.
03-11-2014, 10:33 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
It makes all sorts of sense, imho. One of the biggest advantages of an EVF is that it is independent from sensor format. Just a crazy example: A Q camera could be fitted with an FF EVF. What's the most heard advantage of going FF? Yes, the big viewfinder. (Although I can think of many more usefull advantages.)



Holding out for something better to come around is one way to describe it. They're just not innovative anymore. They'll wait untill the EVF can't developed any further before they gathered enough guts to implement it.
Mh. I haven't seen an EVF so far where I said... this is it.


And yes, a big viewfinder is a big plus, but... it's a 1/2.3" sensor! Or a bit bigger for the latest Q. The only reason I can see for it to exist is the size, because if I were to get something even slightly bigger I'd want a bigger sensor. But maybe that's just me.


As for middle ground in terms of FF... maybe Pentax can surprise and impress me, but for me a K-5 is at the limit of what I am willing to carry. Absolute limit.


@ElJamoquio: I think what he meant was that if you were to try to keep the size as small as possible, reliability would take a hit. If not, well, the camera will end up bigger and heavier. The curtain needs to be bigger, the mirror needs to be, and so on, and thus motors need to be bigger/stronger too.

03-11-2014, 11:00 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
The "green button" is not really working properly as has been shown.
In my experience the optical preview lever does work properly. I have no real idea whether while the OPL actually closes the aperture and meters reality vs. the Green Button merely emulating the same (which would be a challenge since the elctronics cannot know which lens is actually mounted), but I have excellent results with K lenses metering with the Optical Preview Lever.
03-11-2014, 12:57 PM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
Most of the world's population does not care about DSLRs.
Nevertheless, Ricoh/Pentax builds such cameras .

Most of us also don't care about video options .

I do no care about live preview, video, internal flash, SDM/DC, WR, etc.
If that's the best you can do as an argument for an "uncrippled mount", then I want a beer dispenser in my camera. I get thirsty in the hots sun sometimes. After all Pentax includes video which I don't use, they should take that out and put in a beer dispenser... that's why Pentax is doomed.
What is it an uncrippled mount does again? Is that the thing that makes your viewfinder so dark you can't see? The only thing good about that was making sure you knew how to turn it off.
03-12-2014, 02:53 AM   #236
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QuoteQuote:
If that's the best you can do as an argument for an "uncrippled mount", then I want a beer dispenser in my camera. [...] What is it an uncrippled mount does again? Is that the thing that makes your viewfinder so dark you can't see?
I just wanted to show that the "I/we don't need it" argumentation is not a good one. As a final consequence, photography as a hobby would e.g. not exist or we would all be limited to pictures from mobile phones. The advantages of an uncrippled mount are e.g. discussed in the corresponding thread. And no, "the thing" does not influence the brightness of the viewfinder. The aperture coupler mechanically tells the body, by which amount the lens is stopped down. This information unfortunately is ignored by current Pentax DSLRs. Thus, you have to meter via the green button (which in contrast then darkens your viewfinder) if a lens is not set at the "A" position. See also: Features and operation of the crippled mount.
QuoteQuote:
In my experience the optical preview lever does work properly. I have no real idea whether while the OPL actually closes the aperture and meters reality vs. the Green Button merely emulating the same (which would be a challenge since the elctronics cannot know which lens is actually mounted), but I have excellent results with K lenses metering with the Optical Preview Lever.
The green button provides a "stop down metering", which is not accurate:
Test procedure: An image of a white area was taken with an A-lens and a K-5 at several f-stops (x-axis), the grey scale value of the image then was determined with Photoshop (y-axis).
Blue curve: Lens set to A, aperture value set in camera (which would be similar to the usage of an uncrippled mount).
Red curve: Aperture value set at lens, usage of green button (note the deviation from the blue curve and/or a constant value: the fluctuations correspond to about two [!] f-stops)
Test of the reliability of the "green button" metering

De-crippling the K-mount will lead to an increased and/or more reliable functionality with all lenses possessing an aperture ring.
One could use the aperture ring and just shoot away. This would work with any K, M, A, F, FA lens.
Automated metering, more exposure modes, and flash capability (currently fires at full power) would be possible even with K/M lenses (or lenses not set at the "A" position).
The usage of bellows and extension rings would be simplified.
One would have a "three wheel camera": Set aperture at lens, time and ISO with the two e-dials.
The green button is a less-than-ideal solution, where a better, more accurate and simple alternative is available at low cost.
Using a good tool is better than using a flawed one, even if both do their job.
03-12-2014, 04:02 AM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
...
De-crippling the K-mount will lead to an increased and/or more reliable functionality with all lenses possessing an aperture ring.
One could use the aperture ring and just shoot away. This would work with any K, M, A, F, FA lens.
Automated metering, more exposure modes, and flash capability (currently fires at full power) would be possible even with K/M lenses (or lenses not set at the "A" position).....
And that is exactly why we won't see it anytime soon.

Enable that, and wave bye bye to the future of the K-mount; suddenly everyone discovers old secondhand stuff working better than before, instead of people buying new and much better lenses that sustain future development of the mount.
Enable that on an FF, and you kiss Pentax brand goodbye forever.

It does sound dramatic, but it really is so. The only reason people are arguing for de-crippling of the K-mount is that they can continue getting best and latest advances in the DSLR technology — in which Pentax barely breaks even through the sales of camera bodies — only for that incredible gear to be used on some dusty, age old lenses some smarties get can get for peanuts on the flea market.

Only new lenses can ensure the future of the brand, not some A or M glass.

If I were Ricoh Imaging, to anyone asking for same I'd show elegantly a pinkie extended under the desk during an interview, and continue developing lenses for users who care for the future of the mount and buy modern lenses, not for dinosaurs stuck in the Jurassic era.

Does it sound harsh? Not my intent, indeed, but that is the logical finale of an irrational and implausible demand.

Last edited by Uluru; 03-12-2014 at 04:15 AM.
03-12-2014, 05:04 AM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Only new lenses can ensure the future of the brand, not some A or M glass.
True, but that has NOTHING to do with a mechanical aperture coupler being available on a new body or not. If Pentax has modern, super quality, HD coated, glass available then they have nothing to fear because old MF glass is simply no substitute for new AF glass (unless the AF glass is utter crap or the required lens is simply not available in AF).
03-12-2014, 05:14 AM   #239
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I beg to differ:

Enable that and the future of the K mount will be secured. It would be a strong commitment into the sustainment of the mount and the long-term value of the lenses. Thus, also any investment into new lenses would be ensured. Compatibility will be protected - a strong statement. Such a covenant would ensure the future of the brand and it would show the proudness on their history. The legendary K, M, A* and FA* lenses are part of the latter. Owners of old glass would buy a new DSLR solely for this reason. These users obviously care for the past and the future of the mount. Additionally, this would also increase the interest in "modern" lenses. Pentax e.g. advertised in their German accessory catalogue (March 2007):
QuoteQuote:
K. Wie Know-how, Kompetenz, Kompatibilität.

Das legendäre PENTAX K-Bajonett.

Hochwertige Präzisionsobjektive gehören nicht unbedingt zu den Dingen, die man sich alle naselang kauft – und das hat nicht nur finanzielle Gründe. Jeder Fotograf weiß, dass man mit einem erstklassigen Objektiv umzugehen lernt, wie mit einem erstklassigen Werkzeug. Wer mit der Bedienung eines Objektivs vertraut ist, hat deshalb den nachvollziehbaren Wunsch, dieses Objektiv auch an anderen Bodies zu nutzen.

Als PENTAX 1975 das K-Bajonett entwickelte, war damit das Ziel verbunden, eine langfristige Nutzung von PENTAX Objektiven zu ermöglichen. Das Ergebnis ist bekannt. Das PENTAX K-Bajonett ist heute der weltweit am meisten verbreitete Objektivanschluss.
Translation:
QuoteQuote:
K - like in know-how, in c[k ]ompetence, and in c[k ]ompatibility [OK, there is some kind of misspelling in English here "lost in translation"]

The legendary PENTAX K bayonet.

High-quality precision lenses do not necessarily belong to the things that you buy frequently - and that not only because of economical reasons. Every photographer knows that you get to know a first-class lens, like you become acquainted with a premium tool. Those who are familiar with the handling of a lens, will have the understandable desire to use it also on other bodies.

When PENTAX developed the K-mount in 1975, it included the intent to ensure the long-term usability of PENTAX lenses. The result is known: The PENTAX K bayonet is the world's most widely used lens mount today.
So, Pentax did officially promote the K mount and its compatibility and continuity as the number one argument for their camera system.

K - like in "keep your promise".
03-12-2014, 05:33 AM   #240
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I don't care about 50-year-old lenses any more. On the K10D legacy lenses were a novelty. Now they are (for the most part) what I have, but they aren't as good as new lenses.

If the camera doesn't meter well actually stopped down (whether by Green Button or by Optical Preview Lever) what on earth makes you think it will meter well if the lens tells the camera in analog the position of the aperture lever? Better tot ask Pentax why the camera doesn't meter well with manual lenses using the system they have in place.

I still maintain in my experience OPL works better than GB. If there isn't someting different why did they give us OPL?
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