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03-02-2014, 03:16 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
You make a really important point.

It seems Pentax isn't (at this time) aggressively competing for Sports Indoor, where fast is a requirement. Pentax seems to say over and over they make 'Field Cameras' which I assume means they optimize for small size and to shoot Landscape. Stands to reason if I have to lug gear in a backpack to a location I'd want smaller and lighter, assuming my final IQ is comparative.

I think many of our users' complaints about shortcomings occur because Pentax has chosen a narrow, discrete niche to exploit.
Not sure what "field camera" really means since most pics from all cameras are likely taken outside anyway? And if landscape photography is the main course on the Pentax menu then which lenses do they have in mind?

I saw a nice old vintage advert from Pentax earlier today - "David Bailey's Pentax - Your Pentax becomes part of you". 1960s? But very effective, I thought. See here. Anyway, it speaks much more directly than a rather vague term like "field camera". (This was at the superb exhibition of Bailey's work throughout his life at the London National Portrait Gallery, Bailey's Stardust, which I recommended to anyone if you get the chance to see it. Black and white images, mostly, to die for.)


Last edited by mecrox; 03-02-2014 at 05:28 PM.
03-02-2014, 04:39 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
oh.. sarcastically mocking me by wrapping it around a strawman (based on 'FF')..


We're a society of instant gratification and 'need' to know now.

Sorry, Ricoh isn't rolling out the red carpet for any of us.. no fast food, plastic wrapped, microwave instant meal here.. we'll just have to be patient like everyone else who doesn't have a paystub with 'Ricoh' at the top to see what they release when they are both (a) good and (b) ready.

And you say 'just give us a high level statement that X product is in the works.' However, you know as well as I it would not end there.. next would be questions on who makes the sensor.. megapixel count.. autofocus technology.. mount type.. etc. It is opening "Pandora's box" by answering just one question at high level.

Even though you don't see it, upcoming product information is rather valuable information. To them, competitors, and to end users.

Ricoh also want to continue selling their current products at current (or higher) amounts.. Since the 'friendly' discussion has reverted back to Full Frame for the umpteenth time, I'll use it as an example -- What happens if Ricoh states tomorrow 'Full Frame body released in X months' ?? Do people rush out and buy K-3 bodies and/or crop sensor designed lenses? NO! They hold on to what they have or, at the best, stock up on Full Frame designed lenses in hopes they'll mount to that upcoming FF body.

That is pretty bad news for Ricoh in the short term. Especially since APS-C based cameras still make up ~90% of the market. They don't want to hurt that segment. It could also harm them somewhat longer down the road if they re-release updated versions of their camera lenses for the new body as you now won't be buying since you bought the older versions in anticipation of the then announced FF system.


In any case, irregardless on if you believe what I say or not, one truth that needs to be stated over and over ...and over... .......and over at Pentax Forums is we all need to try patience or find another camera system if one can no longer wait. That, and if anyone is not taking photographs they find interesting with their current camera, a larger sensor in a more expensive camera body isn't going to resolve this issue.
I fully appreciate the calling out of the straw man argument. However, have you subtly put forth another one, too? If Ricoh/Pentax really do have plans to introduce a FF camera, it wouldn't exactly be tipping off the competition to say something like "it's very likely we will be offering a FF product but as you can understand we can't comment on when that might be or what it will feature." It would be a more definitely statement than they made (which is just a recycle of previous statements) which would be useful for their customers without being destructive to their business position/interest. Just my two cents.
03-02-2014, 04:46 PM   #108
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They made stronger statements like that; for example:
"First, we are discussing development of FF SLR. We are touching base with a sensor manufacturer and proceeding the process of development towards production."
"We are developing towards commercial production and will definitely launch though"
That was in 2012; maybe 2 years would be enough to get it ready to market.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/201538-dc-watch-int...velopment.html
03-02-2014, 04:53 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
They made stronger statements like that; for example:
"First, we are discussing development of FF SLR. We are touching base with a sensor manufacturer and proceeding the process of development towards production."
"We are developing towards commercial production and will definitely launch though"
That was in 2012; maybe 2 years would be enough to get it ready to market.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/201538-dc-watch-int...velopment.html
If it's perceived by their audience that they are backing off from prior statements, how can that be a good thing?

03-02-2014, 05:11 PM   #110
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It's definitely not a good thing, but it tells more about people twisting said statements in a negative way rather than what's happening at Ricoh. In which way is "Research and development into full-frame is still ongoing" backing off from prior statements?
03-02-2014, 05:29 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's definitely not a good thing, but it tells more about people twisting said statements in a negative way rather than what's happening at Ricoh. In which way is "Research and development into full-frame is still ongoing" backing off from prior statements?
The burden is on RI to be clear about the issue and not let it be mis-perceived they are backing off. That's what these guys are paid to do.
03-02-2014, 05:32 PM   #112
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If a lens is on a roadmap once, and removed the next, is that lens coming out?


The FF is still coming. ...but when asked about it, the project should be confirmed.
03-02-2014, 05:58 PM   #113
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But they confirmed it; that's what "ongoing" means.

Ricoh Imaging didn't remove any lens from the roadmap IIRC, Hoya did. And guess what, the long lens and the rear converter were actually launched.

03-02-2014, 06:09 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
But they confirmed it; that's what "ongoing" means.

Ricoh Imaging didn't remove any lens from the roadmap IIRC, Hoya did. And guess what, the long lens and the rear converter were actually launched.
Here's the question and answer:

Question 18: Does Ricoh Imaging plan to tackle the full-frame / professional DSLR market, and do you see cameras with full-frame sensors as something that would fit into your product lineup? Are you still developing this type of product?
Research and development into full-frame is still ongoing. We cannot talk about it yet.

Talking about the professional market, we have the 645D, which has far better image quality than full-frame. So this product can also fit the market for some professional photographers. Of course the 645D is not targeting news photographers, but can be a good partner for high-end market professionals such as fashion or studio work.


Research and development is "ongoing". That's about as lame a confirmation (if it was one) that anyone could dream up. Secondly, they didn't even answer the first question about FF fitting into their product lineup but, perhaps, tried to answer it by talking about the 645D. If someone asks them about FF and they talk about MF instead, aren't they leaving the entire subject open to potentially gross misunderstanding of their position?
03-02-2014, 06:30 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Research and development is "ongoing". That's about as lame a confirmation (if it was one) that anyone could dream up.
It was a backtrack compared to the language previously used.
03-02-2014, 06:38 PM   #116
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The question itself had issues:
+ "full-frame" does not necessarily means "professional", and it would not be possible for Ricoh Imaging to target the professional small format market. It was only natural to mention the medium format.
+ We already knew they want to make and launch a FF line. Did they expect "Oh, no, we don't think it would fit but we're working on it anyway" as an answer? Do you?
It's also prompting for yes/no answers. Are you doing this? Are you doing that?
03-02-2014, 06:40 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Research and development is "ongoing". That's about as lame a confirmation (if it was one) that anyone could dream up. Secondly, they didn't even answer the first question about FF fitting into their product lineup but, perhaps, tried to answer it by talking about the 645D. If someone asks them about FF and they talk about MF instead, aren't they leaving the entire subject open to potentially gross misunderstanding of their position?
The FF is inevitable, like many things in life. But if they want to keep their cards close to their chest, not reveal particulars to agitate competition and give them ideas in advance, or to disturb sales of current cameras, nothing is wrong with that. It may well be that the FF is packed with good things many don’t expect.

However, if they do not deliver on the promise they have made (ie. FF as a unique camera and not a mere C&N follower, not spoiling current mounts, challenging other FFs, etc.) then I presume users do have a right to be displeased.
03-02-2014, 07:33 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
The FF is inevitable, like many things in life. But if they want to keep their cards close to their chest, not reveal particulars to agitate competition and give them ideas in advance, or to disturb sales of current cameras, nothing is wrong with that. It may well be that the FF is packed with good things many don’t expect.

However, if they do not deliver on the promise they have made (ie. FF as a unique camera and not a mere C&N follower, not spoiling current mounts, challenging other FFs, etc.) then I presume users do have a right to be displeased.
Well, I already posted they could hold all of their cards close to their vest while also saying that they likely will release a FF camera. It gives the competition nothing of any value but still makes it look like they have a real plan in place. The way they answered, it looks like a possible retraction of earlier statements, assuming they even have a plan. Regardless, I come back to my prior point.... why give an interview if you leave the audience uncertain if you know what you're doing? Don't let your audience guess at your competence. That just reflects poorly on their company, deserved or not.
03-02-2014, 07:43 PM   #119
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I got the impression that they are not talking about it like they don't talk about any product that they are about to release until they are ready. Previous statements seemed more to be, yes, we are poking at it.

And yes, we are parsing tea leaves.
03-02-2014, 07:44 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Not sure what "field camera" really means since most pics from all cameras are likely taken outside anyway?
This statement seems very strange to me since nearly all the photos I take, and persons I know take, are taken indoors.
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