Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
03-17-2014, 03:01 AM   #76
Site Supporter
Zygonyx's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Ile de France
Posts: 3,032
QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
Don't say this about Sony Zeiss lenses - expensive, yes, but boring? You've obviously never used one.
I use ZK 25mm f/2.8 and also use two Voigtlander lenses.
Those Zeiss lenses are for demanding and knowledgable photogs, not for low-cost users, be it even FF.

@uluru : i liked your "entropy" theory ; and one has to admit that Ricoh should concentrate on K, GR and medium format 645D lines, instead of dispersing it's R&D in a too adventurous FF. There is already very much to do with the current product lines (not to mention Q system) if they are to be continued...


Last edited by Zygonyx; 03-17-2014 at 03:06 AM.
03-17-2014, 03:26 AM   #77
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,646
DSLR vs camcorder - Imgur
The top screengrab is from a K-5 with a 18-55 kit lens, the bottom screengrab is from a Panasonic X900, which retails for something around $1500 and represents the top of the line (AFAIK) Panasonic camcorder. I don't think I need to say much.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I'm a complete video-n00b. But very recently I discovered how nicely the video output of my old trusty K-5 is. It certainly outperformes the video of my Sony video camera. A small external mic fixed the issue I had with the abysmal sound of the onboard mic. The video of my K-3 is (at least) just as good. What is wrong with Pentax video features? I'll repeat that I'm just not that into video. Something to do with my inability to actually sit down and watch movie for more then 5 seconds.
The K-3 has several problems: It uses h264 rather than MJPEG, and h264 is a rather difficult codec to encode for. It was worst in the K-01, but even the K-3 has some blocking issues when there is movement of flat surfaces with a bit of gradient (say, a face). You'll mostly notice it when looking at it frame by frame. A Sony DSLT from 2 years or so ago will have the same issues. The K-5 doesn't, cause MJPEG is really just 25 JPEGs in a row every second. (The Panasonic camcorder also has a very good encoder chip). The K-3 also does not have in body image stabilization for video, which comes in very handy for handheld work. Say you're doing a documentary and don't want to/are not able to carry a rig for the camera. Or you want to further stabilize the video. etc. It can be useful, and it would certainly be a plus point over Canikosonic. Only Olympus has such a system for the moment, Sony will probably get it this year, Panasonic might too. The K-5 did have it as well.

The actual image from the sensor in the K-3 is not as good as what Nikon does with the D5300, but probably around the level of Canon cameras (which are very popular with filmmakers!). Sony does some ugly processing in camera that gives a very video camera like look, though you can probably dial it down.

If Pentax were to enable SR again (and it works in liveview, so why on earth not in video mode?! Just as an option in addition to the absolutely useless image destroying electronic SR it does have), maybe tweak it a bit/add options and manual controls for the SR system, enable clean HDMI and/or raw video (using 2 high speed SD cars probably) (or at least MJPEG at high bitrates, higher bitrate h264, ...), and perhaps enable focus peaking (even if it's not for the full frame, if the CPU isn't fast enough), then it would have something that could beat pretty much every camera on the market. Olympus only has 30 fps, which is a massive limitation. Nikon, Canon, Sony and Panasonic don't have SR. Also, APS-C is more or less the size that every major motion picture uses.

It's mostly firmware tweaks. Olympus is working on the OM-D E-M1 firmware to make it better for video. Pentax could too.

Pentax could do in the video world what they do in the medium format world.

Last edited by kadajawi; 03-17-2014 at 03:33 AM.
03-17-2014, 03:44 AM   #78
Pentaxian
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,863
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
What I do not care about are those cheap FFs you're talking about. If I did, I'd have one of them.
We should discuss MSRP vs MSRP, and inside the same class; not heavily discounted street prices vs. an estimated MSRP of a supposedly higher class camera.
What you say would be a valid argument, if ...

... said higher class camera from Pentax would exist.

As it stands, the D600 is a very high end camera, dust problems solved (replaced shutter) and both stellar performance and IQ (got a high DPR and DxO rating too). It is used by many pros. Moreover, it isn't much heavier than K-3 and quieter than D800.

I sincerely hope that Pentax can make something similiar (in a more beautiful, K-3 like body and with the great Pentax ergonomy of course). But hoping for a higher class camera which can sell at higher prices ... that seems like a far stretch to me ... (and no, a 2nd card slot doesn't make it higher class)

See ... many call the K-3 the D400 Nikon fails to make. Yet, people from Nikon don't convert, as it doesn't mount Nikon glass and didn't get the 51 point tracking AF. Message: a full frame body from Pentax won't convert non Pentaxians. Not anymore. It may at best stop conversions in the other direction. But only if it can compete with said cameras, considering price too as many Pentaxians are known to be very price sensitive.

In short: Pentax can make a FF K-1, but it can't sell it more expensive than the K-3. And that actually may be right at the heart of the problem for Pentax management to do it at all. Until it will be too late anyway.

Last edited by falconeye; 03-17-2014 at 03:59 AM.
03-17-2014, 03:48 AM   #79
Senior Member




Join Date: May 2012
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 140
QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
DSLR vs camcorder - Imgur
The top screengrab is from a K-5 with a 18-55 kit lens, the bottom screengrab is from a Panasonic X900, which retails for something around $1500 and represents the top of the line (AFAIK) Panasonic camcorder.
Is that Yanagawa?

03-17-2014, 03:54 AM   #80
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,118
QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
DSLR vs camcorder - Imgur
The top screengrab is from a K-5 with a 18-55 kit lens, the bottom screengrab is from a Panasonic X900, which retails for something around $1500 and represents the top of the line (AFAIK) Panasonic camcorder. I don't think I need to say much.


The K-3 has several problems: It uses h264 rather than MJPEG, and h264 is a rather difficult codec to encode for. It was worst in the K-01, but even the K-3 has some blocking issues when there is movement of flat surfaces with a bit of gradient (say, a face). You'll mostly notice it when looking at it frame by frame. A Sony DSLT from 2 years or so ago will have the same issues. The K-5 doesn't, cause MJPEG is really just 25 JPEGs in a row every second. (The Panasonic camcorder also has a very good encoder chip). The K-3 also does not have in body image stabilization for video, which comes in very handy for handheld work. Say you're doing a documentary and don't want to/are not able to carry a rig for the camera. Or you want to further stabilize the video. etc. It can be useful, and it would certainly be a plus point over Canikosonic. Only Olympus has such a system for the moment, Sony will probably get it this year, Panasonic might too. The K-5 did have it as well.

The actual image from the sensor in the K-3 is not as good as what Nikon does with the D5300, but probably around the level of Canon cameras (which are very popular with filmmakers!). Sony does some ugly processing in camera that gives a very video camera like look, though you can probably dial it down.

If Pentax were to enable SR again (and it works in liveview, so why on earth not in video mode?! Just as an option in addition to the absolutely useless image destroying electronic SR it does have), maybe tweak it a bit/add options and manual controls for the SR system, enable clean HDMI and/or raw video (using 2 high speed SD cars probably) (or at least MJPEG at high bitrates, higher bitrate h264, ...), and perhaps enable focus peaking (even if it's not for the full frame, if the CPU isn't fast enough), then it would have something that could beat pretty much every camera on the market. Olympus only has 30 fps, which is a massive limitation. Nikon, Canon, Sony and Panasonic don't have SR. Also, APS-C is more or less the size that every major motion picture uses.

It's mostly firmware tweaks. Olympus is working on the OM-D E-M1 firmware to make it better for video. Pentax could too.

Pentax could do in the video world what they do in the medium format world.
I did notice some difference between video of the K-5 and K-3. But I'm not interested enough, or not informed enough, in video to determine that is was caused by that lacking mechanical SR. Why dump a good thing like that?

For my 128cm Samsung HD television the K-5 video seems more then enough now, imho. I'm sure that would be different if I was as picky about video as I was about photos.
03-17-2014, 03:56 AM   #81
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,646
QuoteOriginally posted by Adam G Quote
Is that Yanagawa?
No, it's somewhere around Shanghai.

@falconeye: There we have yet another problem. I _might_ be interested if the FF Pentax were the size and weight and build quality of a K-3, with a similar price tag. Others want a (relatively) low price tag, say a 6D competitor. Yet others want a high end 1D competitor. And yet again others want something along the lines of a 5D. So amongst those few who now say they will buy a Pentax FF only a few will buy it, because for some it may be too expensive, for others too low end, ... Pentax really might give an employee a 3D printer and ask him to make the cameras by hand.

@Clavius: When you notice the difference in a moving camera, then it might very well be the SR. The other issues don't show themselves so easily. Now why Pentax dumped SR is a good question. Several forumers wonder about that. I hoped Adam would ask it during the interview, but nope, nothing. It's fine that they leave the electronic SR, just add another option. Sony btw. also makes use of an electronic SR, and their system is MUCH better than the Pentax one. There really is no competition. Yet the system in the K-5 is a huge improvement over the Sony system.

The K-5 and the K-3 are capable of doing great videos. Especially the K-5 has a rather cinematic look to it that is just gorgeous. It doesn't do so well in low light, and there is some aliasing, but you can certainly work with it. And with the SR I prefer it to most other DSLRs for video (obviously for stills too). The K-3 has to be shot under pretty controlled conditions, though then it also delivers great video. The problem is... some of the competitors do that too, and they have things like a movable screen, clean HDMI (for external recorders and monitors), ...

Pentax needs to treat video in an SLR as a feature for professional usage, especially on the K-5 and K-3. It is not meant for consumers. Consumers want something that is easy to use, has good auto focus, ... and they'll probably be shooting with cheaper cameras anyway. The K-3 is a serious tool for photography... it should do video with the same seriousness. Would we be content if the K-3 doesn't allow you to change white balance? Exposure time? Metering method? AF spot? Offer no histogram? Video on a Pentax was always dumbed down, as if it would confuse camera owners. It's like selling a race car, but using an auto gearbox with no manual override, no possibility to deactivate traction control and stability control, etc.

Last edited by kadajawi; 03-17-2014 at 04:10 AM.
03-17-2014, 04:07 AM   #82
Pentaxian
RonHendriks1966's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,714
QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
@RonHendriks1966: There is a reason to replace the K-3 sooner. At the time it was launched it was a meeeeeh camera for video that could just keep up with cameras launched years ago. Since photographers have to shoot video too (unless you're only doing it as a hobby) it is just not a good tool. It is usable under certain conditions, but the competitors are already ahead, and will be much further ahead in a year or two. The only reason to use a K-3 is because you already have Pentax lenses, but you can simply use an adapter to use those on better cameras. Now, Pentax COULD fix the K-3 to a certain extend through firmware, but... will they do it?

Well I also had a talk with Pentax reps in Europe:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/248845-ricoh-imaging-europe-s-s-report-meeting.html

At the moment I don't have the idea that the professional market is their goal, since I don't see any movement to enter this market. Wheater it is sports- journalist- or other professional markets. There are good camera's with the K-3 as top for lots off amature-, family and hobbyistphotographers. Great for working in wildlife at a level just below the top. Not that the K-3 can't deliver superb images from an African safari, but most pro's would go and take a Full Frame offering fro the competition. Amatures do follow the pro's, that simple it is. So when you don't deliver on stunning images made at major sportsevents, don't win any prices in competitions like World Press, then you don't get access to the big playground where sales are made upon proven image quality.
03-17-2014, 04:18 AM   #83
Pentaxian
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,079
All this sound and fury about FF. But who are Ricoh's real challengers over the next few years, the ones they may lose sales to, assuming their APS-C cameras remain competitive? Is it the FF crowd or the m43/Fuji/NEX crowd? If you think that, say, 10 per cent of folks are likely to jump over to Canonkon FF but that there is a greater risk that 25 per cent will jump over to m43 et al (or buy those products rather than yours to begin with), then FF is not your first worry, I'd have thought. Ricoh positions Pentax as a brand for enthusiasts, mostly. What do the majority of enthusiasts aim for? It's quite an important question. Wealthy enthusiasts who actually want FF will likely all have moved to FF by now (and are unlikely to switch their FF brands), but there aren't that many of them. What about the rest? What are they looking for over the next few years? Pentax and FF seems something of a proxy for dissatisfaction at Pentax's lowly status these days, I'd guess. The real stuff is likely elsewhere. For example if Canonikon ever get serious about small but capable mirrorless APS-C cameras, "FF" would start to look like a storm in a teacup. So, FF or m43/Fuji/NEX: which poses the greater challenge to Ricoh's core business, their APS-C DSLR camera lines?


Last edited by mecrox; 03-17-2014 at 04:32 AM.
03-17-2014, 04:20 AM   #84
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,646
I don't see any reason why a pro wouldn't use a Pentax. I'm using it for architectural photography, and it works very well (thanks to sensor shift I can get shots I could not with a Canikon, unless I invest in the seriously expensive Canon tilt shift lenses). Pentax cameras and lenses are very sharp, they have good low light capabilities, can take a beating, are lightweight and small... they are perfectly suited to the professional market, especially when the photographer isn't keen on carrying very heavy gear (journalism?). Some pros are moving towards mFT, so APS-C is not too small. Pentax would fill in the middle ground, for those who want smaller and lighter than FF or professional APS-C from Canikon, but want a sensor that's bigger than mFT/don't need something quite as small.
03-17-2014, 04:31 AM   #85
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,124
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
@Kunzite: Try bringing the SR system to FF. The sensor is bigger, it has a higher mass. Good luck moving it fast enough, precise enough, far enough. Are there any FF cameras with optical stabilization? If Pentax can't offer USABLE SR in camera, they will have to have it in the lenses. Which again means new lenses, investments, ... otherwise why would I go for a camera system that does not offer any form of stabilization? And what else could Pentax bring to the market? I like Pentax for having SR, and for being reasonably small and light yet weather proof, and for having a good UI. How small and light can they make a FF camera? Weather sealing exists on FF cameras. FF cameras are generally reasonably well thought out too, because of their target audience.

Remember, only Canon, Nikon and Sony are in the FF market. The brands that have a lot of experience and have invested tons of money into the development of these cameras. The FF market has the best cameras there are... the best AF systems, the fastest processors, etc. Cameras that demonstrate the very best there is. Competing there is... difficult. Just ask Sony.
All right, this is a technical issue they will have to solve. Sony did it - in-body stabilization with FF sensor.
It's no different than with APS-C. With the K-3, for example, they solved the challenge of making a SR system able to be used as an AA-filter simulator (but not yet for movies).
New lenses would be required anyway, but I wouldn't bet on Pentax not being able to solve the SR on FF problem.

That's a quite narrow definition of "best". Is the small format better than a medium format camera, for example? Because of their fast AF and frame rate, even for studio and landscape work?

---------- Post added 17-03-14 at 01:50 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
What you say would be a valid argument, if ...

... said higher class camera from Pentax would exist.

As it stands, the D600 is a very high end camera, dust problems solved (replaced shutter) and both stellar performance and IQ (got a high DPR and DxO rating too). It is used by many pros. Moreover, it isn't much heavier than K-3 and quieter than D800.

I sincerely hope that Pentax can make something similiar (in a more beautiful, K-3 like body and with the great Pentax ergonomy of course). But hoping for a higher class camera which can sell at higher prices ... that seems like a far stretch to me ... (and no, a 2nd card slot doesn't make it higher class)

See ... many call the K-3 the D400 Nikon fails to make. Yet, people from Nikon don't convert, as it doesn't mount Nikon glass and didn't get the 51 point tracking AF. Message: a full frame body from Pentax won't convert non Pentaxians. Not anymore. It may at best stop conversions in the other direction. But only if it can compete with said cameras, considering price too as many Pentaxians are known to be very price sensitive.

In short: Pentax can make a FF K-1, but it can't sell it more expensive than the K-3. And that actually may be right at the heart of the problem for Pentax management to do it at all. Until it will be too late anyway.
My argument is valid. Bringing in the most discounted prices you can find is not.
The D600 is a D7000 made full frame; and I'm sure Pentax can do better. Is that "very high end"? Then, how would you call a D800, or a D4? How would you call a camera placed in between the D610 and the D800?
It's not hoping. Pentax is playing higher end with the K-3, compared with the D7xxx series. They still don't have a 51-points AF but the better build quality, slightly faster frame rate and a real buffer are there. I'm convinced they will do the same with their FF, instead of attempting to compete on price.
And nope, it won't have to be the camera to convert lots of people. The entire system must become more desirable in order to grow the user base, and the K-3 is just a step in the right direction. A well placed entry level could have a larger effect, than some sort of "uber-FF".
03-17-2014, 05:11 AM   #86
Pentaxian
RobA_Oz's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,312
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
All right, this is a technical issue they will have to solve. Sony did it - in-body stabilization with FF sensor.
It's no different than with APS-C. With the K-3, for example, they solved the challenge of making a SR system able to be used as an AA-filter simulator (but not yet for movies).
New lenses would be required anyway, but I wouldn't bet on Pentax not being able to solve the SR on FF problem
While we can argue this one (and have, several times over), up-scaling the SR mechanism from APS-C to 35FF is an engineering design issue, it isn't necessarily a problem. The bigger sensor will probably fit on the existing SR frame or a slightly larger one and, although the mass will be greater, the overall difference may not be as great as we think. Good design and material selection may also contribute to minimising it. Depending on the resolution of the sensor, an AA-filter simulation may not be needed, either. The problem, though, may be the acceptability of some reduction in battery life because of the increase in energy consumption, but the larger sensor and higher processor demand may be the greater culprits there. I really doubt IBIS is a show-stopper for a 35FF Pentax DSLR, but designing an economical, efficient and effective system may require some extra effort. On the other hand, the benefits of such a design would likely flow down to the APS-C bodies as well, maybe even the GR.
03-17-2014, 06:31 AM   #87
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,213
Jeebus. Think D800 competitor, very similar features and IQ. Smaller. Gems of lenses, not honking big zooms. Outstanding, bright viewfinder (maybe something special here). Ergonomics, IBIS, WR. New menu system. Maybe even better shutter and flash sync - maybe the new flashes have undocumented FW utility. Something new and elegant and shockingly different we hadn't thought of before.

$2,499 street.

2014 unless the FA Limited updates really have been removed from the ToDo List.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-17-2014 at 06:38 AM.
03-17-2014, 06:41 AM   #88
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,175
QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
A recent $1500 video camera is, in terms of image quality, dynamic range etc. easily beaten by a $150 point & shoot.
The video from my old video camera with 720*576 (the price is USD300) looks better than 720p of P&S cameras.
03-17-2014, 07:33 AM   #89
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,893
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
it isn't much heavier than K-3
D600 + 24-85 F/3.5-4.5 is cheaper, lighter, faster, sharper, etc., etc. than K-3+16-50 F/2.8.

Depends on lens of course...
03-17-2014, 08:32 AM   #90
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,646
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
The video from my old video camera with 720*576 (the price is USD300) looks better than 720p of P&S cameras.
Depends on the P&S. There are some that have rather excellent video (not during zooming, focusing, ...). I have the SX130, and I prefer it over our Panasonic SD camcorder. Or the other camcorders that came before it. Or perhaps even over the Panasonic X900... again, the top of the line camcorder from 2012. At least in terms of sensor quality. Most video cameras have tiny sensors that make P&S sensors look massive in comparison.

Just look at my link posted earlier. I think the difference is quite clear. With the K-5, the sky never turns cyan. With the SX130 it does sometimes. With the X900, all the time. And you see this clipping of a single color all the time, everywhere. Skin, buildings, sky, ... it's just horrible. The rest of that X900 is brilliant. The stabilizer is ridiculously good, the Leica lens is sharp, handling is quite good, the built in encoder does an excellent job even at low bitrates.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
645d, buyers, camera, crop, ff, hand, k-3, lenses, light, lines, market, mf, months, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, players, release, ricoh, sales, sensor, ships, solution, sony, support, system, time, wave
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Imaging Resource's light leak tests odyseuss Pentax DSLR Discussion 6 03-14-2014 10:54 AM
Interview with Chief Sales & Marketing Officer / Ricoh Imaging Japan leonsroar Pentax News and Rumors 464 01-13-2014 01:42 PM
Ricoh email on K-3 points to Imaging Resource review bwDraco Pentax K-3 34 10-23-2013 11:01 AM
Imaging-Resource Pentax/Ricoh interview ogl Pentax News and Rumors 44 09-24-2012 08:32 AM
Imaging Resource Interview with PENTAX US VP Marketing Gareth.Ig Pentax News and Rumors 8 01-28-2012 10:42 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:45 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top