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04-21-2008, 05:44 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
Lots of well meaning people here trying to make the best of a bad thing, but come on now, this was simply dreadful performance.

25% lost shots? Really bad. I knew Pentax's AF performance was lacking, but I had no idea how sad it really is. Absolutely dreadful, and I hope they now make this a top priority to fix, if they haven't already.

That and apologizing to Benjikan - dreadful what they did to him as well. Marketing geeks be damned, its about the art form, and Benjikan is definitely one of the greats doing this stuff and proudly waiving the Pentax flag, and they gassed him for it.

Simply stupid. This is an awful day for the brand. They have only themselves to blame.

Cheers,
Cameron
Nice troll post, a bit like your last 33 obnoxious contributions.

04-21-2008, 05:58 PM   #62
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?....

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Nice troll post, a bit like your last 33 obnoxious contributions.
I don't know why the personal insult, but have at it if it makes you feel good.

Never said anything bad about you, mate, but maybe it's time to start.



Cheers,
Cameron
04-21-2008, 06:14 PM   #63
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I don't make enough posts (anymore) to be a troll but I chose to leave for Canon because of what I wanted from my camera and so far I am quite happy. I get close to 90% of my bird shots in focus, in flight ones too...and when a teleconverter is attached, I get the same focus speed as my old Sigma 50-500 in my 400L. Its lightening fast AF w/o a tc. I certainly think Pentax makes some great stuff for the artist that doesn't need speed...those shooting wildlife and nature will be somewhat disappointed. I can say that using my old gear did force me to learn more technique which now makes shooting even easier than just added speed. Sorry to disappoint and please don't call me a troll.
04-21-2008, 06:16 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Nice troll post, a bit like your last 33 obnoxious contributions.
Does Benjikan not support Pentax anymore? I haven't been around much lately.

04-21-2008, 06:20 PM   #65
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.


Before everyone gets too crazy here, keep something in mind - in 2009, the sensor that produces images like the ones found in these threads:

K20D Sensor Brilliance

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/25315-lenses-r...atch-k20d.html

Will be wedded to a new AF system, new internal data bus, and possibly a whole new chassis.

So I guess what I'm saying is.... Tom? Don't burn any bridges here, you may wish to come back in 18 months or so.

(don't worry - I'll buy your old D300 to use as a knockabout backup to my K30D then)

04-22-2008, 02:43 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by kent vinyard Quote
Ken,
Amen to that! This is the sad thing about Pentax to me. When a photographer reaches for a higher level Pentax doesn't have the camera there. If the K20 had 6fps and improved af tracking they would have sold more than they did of the K10., and about a dozen photographers that post here and other forums would have stayed with Pentax. I am trying to hold off till this fall to see what happens. I want to keep my Pentax lenses and gear but I had to add a used nikon D2H to do my sports action shots. I just keep hopeing.
Just a precision, not all "higher level" photographers need 6fps and blazing AF.

Actually, almost all "higher level" photographers I know of don't even use AF... but that must be because machine gun sports photography is not a "high level photography" in my book...

(And that's coming from a guy who bought a 30D + 70-200f4IS because he wanted to get more in focus shots of his kids playing and doing sprots.... On a side note, I know get the same keeper rate with my K20 as I did with my 30D, only at 3fps instead of 5).
04-22-2008, 03:00 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
.


Before everyone gets too crazy here, keep something in mind - in 2009, the sensor that produces images like the ones found in these threads:

K20D Sensor Brilliance

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/25315-lenses-r...atch-k20d.html

Will be wedded to a new AF system, new internal data bus, and possibly a whole new chassis.

So I guess what I'm saying is.... Tom? Don't burn any bridges here, you may wish to come back in 18 months or so.

(don't worry - I'll buy your old D300 to use as a knockabout backup to my K30D then)


But unfortunately, the AF will still be relatively slow for the DA* 50-135, no matter what the camera AF system will be.

Already on the K20 (or even K10), the camera's AF isn't the limiting factor with this lens, it's the in-lens motor that is slower than the competition.

I hope the (forever) soon to be released DA*60-250f4 won't suffer from this affliction.

So far, I am using exclusively my new K20 over my 30D, even for sports, because the IQ is really excellent, but I just can't let the 70-200IS go... c'mon Pentax, help me send it to eekBay!!
04-22-2008, 03:09 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
This is a bad choice in gear and actually the worst they could have picked.

The focus throw on the 50-135 is probably twice as far as either of the lenses they probably chose for the other cameras. If they wanted a real speed test you have to also consider the focus throw which Canon has by far the shortest throws for their top glass.
That's not really my experience (70-200IS on 30D and 5D, 50-135 on K10 and K20): the USM ring seems to be able to accelerate to great speed once contrast is acquired which I don't think the AF mechanism on the 50-135 is able to do.

Also the focus throw on both lens is quite similar IMO, just a bit longuer for the Pentax (around 120 rotation for the Pentax and around 100 for the Canon) and that doesn't explain the difference in AF speed.

The Pentax lens will rotate at constant speed while the Canon will accelerate once it finds contrast it can lock on, hence achieving a lock faster.


Also the Canon seems to always choose the right direction to focus while the Pentax sometimes will start focusing in the wrong direction, hit the limit and go back to focus.


All of this makes the Pentax slower to focus that Canon in just about any conditions but the gap is definitely thining.

I couldn't track anything with my K10 while the K20 is able to maintain very good accuracy at 3fps without much trouble.

I am confident that next models will continue improving but so is the competition.

I am just hoping that the SDM mechanism is not the culprit for the modest AF performances of the 50-135 and that the 60-250 will demonstrate equivalent quality as any USM zoom.

04-22-2008, 03:12 AM   #69
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To get some perspective, this is an interesting read...

Does anyone else find Canon's AF to be inadequate?: Canon EOS-1D/1Ds/5D Forum: Digital Photography Review
04-22-2008, 05:05 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
As I am the only one who mentioned PPG - I will assume you are refering to me..
To you maybe (I was not personalizing) and mainly to many others that have made the same argument in the past

QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
And I will state that I did not say Pentax is a good system for sports and wildlife that is your own personal spin on it. I said show me which shots on PPG are poor due to slow lowlight AF - absolutely nothing to do with sports & wildlife only at all. The point is that there is so much more out there in the big world to photograph - that perhaps your narrow mind can't comprehend..
Again, I was not personalizing and my narrow mind will never comprehend how you swift so fast from 0 to 100 and throw personal attacks. My narrow mind was just simply stating that other systems might be better suited than others and that each choice would depend on people's priorities.

QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Price is relevant and Pentax is still the cheaper system - if it doesn't suit your needs then fine buy something that does - seriously tell me how am i somehow stopping you?..

Just remember that not everyone may be as wealthy as you so you should not denegrate people for owning a Pentax or using it for sports or wildlife simply because that is the camera they can afford or are just happy with.
I am starting to think that you have some ego problems. Where in hell did you read that I was not buying into another system cos you were stopping me? You are not stopping me and you cant stop me cos I already have products from other brands. I got a 40d and a 300 f4 IS for less that I would have to pay for a K20D and the equivalent-non-existant at that moment DA300 f4. So yes money was an issue. Maybe in your place is different. I would expect from an open mind like yours to understand that. Please, point where I say that you should expend more money in a camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Yes I follow the tough path not because I want to but because I have to (M class lenses for me not even AF)- you should think yourself most fortunate - enjoy your canikon.
Dont come to cry to my shoulder I dont give a sh*t about what you can or cannot afford and you should do the same about me. But I am nice to show my path. All your M lenses would work with cropped canons. And even OM lenses, and even other brand lenses. Oh no!!
04-22-2008, 05:44 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
"Yup that D300 sure does stomp the snot out of your K100D... You even try a K20D? Walter gets some amazing shots with it and even BIF which I thought was impossible from what many people have proclaimed over the years."

You're right as always, Chris. The D300 does "stomp the snot" out of my trusty Pentax.

Did I even try a K20D? No! Why would I? If I took the time I could find the PM from you that explained that Pentax didn't make any of the changes I was looking for in the areas of focus, speed and buffer size. So, for my needs, Pentax twice has come out with new top-of-their-line cameras that were of no use to me. Why on earth would I buy one. I'm sure everyone is well aware of all the posts where those looking for cameras/lenses that were competitive feature-wise for wildlife/sports and had bought Pentax K10's and 20's were ridiculed saying they should have known Pentax was not interested in those markets. You know the ones - only poor photographers need speed. Good photographers wait for that precise millisecond before making the perfect shot.

If you'll look at my PPG -

PENTAX Photo Gallery

you'll see I've managed a few BIF shots (I've got a 100 or so more decent ones, too), but you know what? For every shot made, there were hundreds that were OOF or that I couldn't even get a focus lock at all to allow the shot due to the poor AF characteristics of my camera. This is in good light. I wouldn't even bother trying in poor light.

I held on for a couple of years, though, hoping that Pentax would address these shortcomings, but no such luck. So my only option was to go to another manufacturer (after 40 years of using Pentax products), and I'm glad I did as I no longer have to wait for a camera that lets me do what I want to. I've got it!

As for Walter's bird photos, they are the best I've seen by any Pentax user. Too bad he uses a $4000.00 SIGMA 500mm lense most of the time now, as it holds out false hopes for those who want to do as well, using strictly Pentax equipment. So much for the Pentax is just as good as Canon or Nikon, but a lot cheaper line.

"Oh the FA*300 f4.5 is not going to compete with the Nikkor 300, you're talking apples to oranges. Bargain 300 versus a top Nikon lens????"

Perhaps, Chris you are not familiar with the FA*300? Widely accepted as one of the best long lenses ever produced by Pentax, if you'll do some research. Sells used in the $1000.00 range, if you can find one. The new DA*300 hopefully will match the optical performance, and will sell for even more - approx. $1300.00, I believe, at stores like yours where pride is taken in selling at full MSRP.

My Nikon AFS 300mm f4.0 cost a little over $800.00. Can be found everywhere for well less than $1300.00.

Similarly the D300 has come down in price and can be found for under $1600. Add that to the cost of the 300mm, and the overall price favours Nikon vs your store price for the K20 and DA*300.

As Gruoso has pointed out, Pentax no longer is a clear "value leader", although anyone reading Pentax fora would come to the conclusion that you have to sell your first-born to own decent Canon or Nikon equipment.

Times have changed...

PS- I'll be keeping my camera and FA*300 as a knock-around combo that I take to work, so don't be looking for them on eBay. Everything else will be going up later this week if I get the time.
The Pentax FA* 300 f4.5 is a marginally OK lens from what I've seen on digital. It's not as high caliber in terms of resolution as the Nikkor, but compare the 300 f2.8's from either brand and you'll see a MASSIVE difference swayed towards Pentax. Not too mention the resolution of the D300 is much higher than the 6MP K100D... about 100% more resolution.

You constantly complain and compare apples to oranges to make up for the fact you miss images. I have birders in town that shoot the best of the best with top lenses and bodies form all the makers and they come into the store complaining about OOF shots. They always complain about the gear, but they themselves are the limiting factor. "My Canon 580EXII didn't reach 180ft to illuminate this shot in HSS mode!" Ummm, duh, it can't do that. "Oh? Really?" Yes, Canon is good, but not that good

I have conversations like this EVERY day with people that have too much money and no skill or talent, but believe the gear should make up for that lack of talent.

The best birders in our town shoot totally different setups, but have two things in common, dedication and patience. Do they shoot at more than 1FPS? No! Do they use anything but the center AF point? No! Do they complain about gear as the limiting factor? No! They've been doing this since film and understand photography from the mathematical sense and sure technology is great, but it ain't a band-aid for a bleeding lack of skill.

Gear has never been the limiting factor in photography as YOU constantly like to jab at the dedicated photogaphers on this forum who get great shots with their crappy landscape/portrait cams. Heck I get better shots of macro/nature than I get in portrait work and even dragonflies in mid flight... oh wait I forgot you mentioned Pentax can't do it. I lied it was with my imaginary D300.

You were once an influential person on the forum Tom, but as you got angrier from not getting the shots you wanted and the magical gear Pentax as supposed to make for you-you've become something along the lines of a RH. Jabbing in your personal vendetta against photographers who excel with Pentax gear and praise their gear for being such a great tool. I for one am finally happy that you got what you wanted and you certainly will get better results with your now pro grade camera vs your entry level camera.

BTW, the jab about pride in selling at MSRP is funny. Wait till you learn what the real costs of things are and how hard it is to make money off cameras. If you saw the cost you'd be like how does anyone make money not selling at MSRP... well the government will fix that soon with a few more lawsuits so I'm not worried and we still outsell B&H in areas so it's ok Tom we will stick to our pride and sell at MSRP and the lousy %5 gross profit we make on Canon gear.

I calls them as I sees 'em and I know I'm going to get a bunch of hate mail and Adam will get some too. But like I said I'm still me and my moderator tag doesn't stop me from speaking whats on my mind.
04-22-2008, 06:29 AM   #72
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This thread is about AF speed with certain lenses etc. But can I say this to all you rich boy wannabe pros out there - I am happy with my Pentax *istDS - I know it doesn't have the fastest AF (I'm not a total idiot). If you want a camera with fast AF and you want to use the results shown in the test in the OP to choose a camera then go out and buy a Sony A700 - what is so hard about that.

Pentax doesn't currently make a camera to make you happpy - they do however make cameras that make me happy- Can you except that MAKE ME HAPPY - NOT YOU.

I am saving for the K20D - I am into martial arts and I combine photography with my sport and guess what I take photos as a hobby - not for money - and even better I enjoy it.

I really enjoy taking the time to know my sport and I really enjoy developing my skill of getting the photo at just the right moment - I don't want a machine gun - to me that is not skill. If you do want a machine gun, more power to you - BUY A CANIKON - be happy.

I also love the fact that I can wander around pawn brokers looking for the odd gem of a lens (latest is my SMC M 35-70 F2.8-3.5 for $20) use them on my camera and get results I am pleased with.

Pentax make affordable cameras for people like me if you can't handle that then just move on - I reallly don't see the problem. One day they might just have a camera for you and believe me I am going to do nothing to stop you buying it.
04-22-2008, 06:42 AM   #73
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lol101,
maybe I didn't make myself clear when I said higher level of photography. There are lots of higher level photographers on this forum as I have seen their work posted here. What I meant was that 95 out out of 100 professional photographers shooting nature, wildlife, and scenics use canon or nikon (many of whom I have met in the field while traveling). If Pentax could get them the same results in their work, the margin would not favor the other brands so much. I came back to Pentax from using canon eos 1D & 1DII cameras because I like the quality of Pentax lenses and because I thought Pentax was going to release a updated camera with higher fps and better af. I'm willing to wait till fall to see what they do and then make a decision just like Tom Lusk did. BTW I don't think Tom would burn any bridges if people here woul quit try to flame him for his decision. I thought this forum was about PHOTOGRAPHY!
04-22-2008, 06:43 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
This thread is about AF speed with certain lenses etc. But can I say this to all you rich boy wannabe pros out there - I am happy with my Pentax *istDS - I know it doesn't have the fastest AF (I'm not a total idiot). If you want a camera with fast AF and you want to use the results shown in the test in the OP to choose a camera then go out and buy a Sony A700 - what is so hard about that.

Pentax doesn't currently make a camera to make you happpy - they do however make cameras that make me happy- Can you except that MAKE ME HAPPY - NOT YOU.

I am saving for the K20D - I am into martial arts and I combine photography with my sport and guess what I take photos as a hobby - not for money - and even better I enjoy it.

I really enjoy taking the time to know my sport and I really enjoy developing my skill of getting the photo at just the right moment - I don't want a machine gun - to me that is not skill. If you do want a machine gun, more power to you - BUY A CANIKON - be happy.

I also love the fact that I can wander around pawn brokers looking for the odd gem of a lens (latest is my SMC M 35-70 F2.8-3.5 for $20) use them on my camera and get results I am pleased with.

Pentax make affordable cameras for people like me if you can't handle that then just move on - I reallly don't see the problem. One day they might just have a camera for you and believe me I am going to do nothing to stop you buying it.
Let me ask you something. Why are you so interested in an AF thead if you are not interested in AF?. Why do you keep disqualifying people that buy the equipment they like or simply they can afford? Why do you keep assuming I am rich, a pro or a wannabe? Why are you so loud in your opinions? Why are you trying to set up fights in a forum?. I am sorry guy. I am not up to the task. You won me there Kungfu kid.
04-22-2008, 06:45 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
I don't know why the personal insult, but have at it if it makes you feel good.

Never said anything bad about you, mate, but maybe it's time to start.



Cheers,
Cameron
I suggest you actually read the whole dicussion that goes before and write something sensible next time. Ben did not fall out with Pentax purely because of Pentax and he is NOT signing up with another maker, he is still using the K20D.

Secondly if you are going to take every test online with dubious results as gospel and then spell the doom of Pentax as a result of this test then you are just being an idiot, or a troll. I had assumed you were not an idiot, sorry! I wont make the same mistake again.
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