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04-22-2008, 06:51 AM   #76
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We should find out whether HSM (ring lens motor) really helps soon when Sigma releases their 70-200/2.8 HSM. I suspect it will more than SDM did :-)

04-22-2008, 07:07 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
Let me ask you something. Why are you so interested in an AF thead if you are not interested in AF?. Why do you keep disqualifying people that buy the equipment they like or simply they can afford? Why do you keep assuming I am rich, a pro or a wannabe? Why are you so loud in your opinions? Why are you trying to set up fights in a forum?. I am sorry guy. I am not up to the task. You won me there Kungfu kid.
I am intersted in the thread from a marketing perspective. I find it facinating to watch a brand like Pentax repositioning itself in the market place and grow its market share. I find it ammusing sometimes and more often frustrating to hear all of these demands for fast af, more fps, cheaper lenses, more lenses etc etc.

The simple truth is that R& D is an expense and a ROI is expected - Do people really think Pentax is so stupid that they don't know there AF is not the fastest? Till they can realistically show a ROI for a faster AF I can't see them spending the $$$ - have to wait and see how K20D sells.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
Why do you keep disqualifying people that buy the equipment they like or simply they can afford?
Funny really, this is exactly what I think you are doing and you think it is what I am doing - I'll reevaluate my position perhaps I am wrong or maybe you are, doesn't really matter does it.

Never said you were rich or a pro wanabe - perhaps you just have a guilty consience.
Not really loud in my opinions IMHO, I think it is just that you don't agree with them IMHO.
I also don't want to use my M lenses on your crappy canon cameras either thanks for the info though.

Oh and it aint Kung Fu I'm into - I'm a Karate Kid thru and thru.
04-22-2008, 07:12 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
I am intersted in the thread from a marketing perspective. I find it facinating to watch a brand like Pentax repositioning itself in the market place and grow its market share. I find it ammusing sometimes and more often frustrating to hear all of these demands for fast af, more fps, cheaper lenses, more lenses etc etc.

The simple truth is that R& D is an expense and a ROI is expected - Do people really think Pentax is so stupid that they don't know there AF is not the fastest? Till they can realistically show a ROI for a faster AF I can't see them spending the $$$ - have to wait and see how K20D sells.


Funny really, this is exactly what I think you are doing and you think it is what I am doing - I'll reevaluate my position perhaps I am wrong or maybe you are, doesn't really matter does it.

Never said you were rich or a pro wanabe - perhaps you just have a guilty consience.
Not really loud in my opinions IMHO, I think it is just that you don't agree with them IMHO.
I also don't want to use my M lenses on your crappy canon cameras either thanks for the info though.

Oh and it aint Kung Fu I'm into - I'm a Karate Kid thru and thru.
Let us stop it here. This is not useful for anyone of us. I could keep rebating your arguments and you could do the same with mine forever. I think that is better stop it before disqualifications grow to insults and "miyagi" kicks
04-22-2008, 07:20 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
Let us stop it here. This is not useful for anyone of us. I could keep rebating your arguments and you could do the same with mine forever. I think that is better stop it before disqualifications grow to insults and "miyagi" kicks
Agreed.
"Bows to his honoured opponent, bows to the Shomen and respectfully leaves the Dojo"

04-22-2008, 07:52 AM   #80
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Improved AF

QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
The simple truth is that R& D is an expense and a ROI is expected - Do people really think Pentax is so stupid that they don't know there AF is not the fastest? Till they can realistically show a ROI for a faster AF I can't see them spending the $$$ - have to wait and see how K20D sells.
Shortly after the K20D was released, I read an interview with one of the top guys at Pentax-Japan. He admitted that they had basically carried the AF system over from the K10D, with little or no improvement. His reason was that they simply did not have the engineering resources to perfect the 14MP CMOS sensor and improve the AF in the same camera.

They made the strategic choice to improve image quality, rather than AF speed or increased fps. Their feeling was that IQ was more important to their target market than AF speed of fps. I'm sure that they also felt that they could make more of a market "splash" with a 14MP sensor than with the somewhat more esoteric (to many buyers) concept of improved continuous AF. We may not like the marketing games that must be played and we may decry the megapixel race, but both are a fact of life in the camera business.

"Engineering resources" = money + trained, experienced engineers. Most of the K20D's development was done before the Hoya takeover, so Hoya didn't have much of a chance to add more money to the mix. And, you can't simply hire a bunch of engineers and expect them to immediately make drastic improvements to the product, even if you have the money to pay them. It takes time for them to come up to speed and become part of the team.

The next Pentax camera will be developed entirely on Hoya's watch. While Hoya has not dumped huge amounts of cash into Pentax R & D, they do seem to have made some targeted investments. Perhaps the K30D (or whatever they call it) will stay at 14MP and improve the AF and fps, that so many here have been wanting.

But then, what do I know?

Last edited by noblepa; 04-22-2008 at 07:53 AM. Reason: typo
04-22-2008, 08:13 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
The Pentax FA* 300 f4.5 is a marginally OK lens from what I've seen on digital. It's not as high caliber in terms of resolution as the Nikkor, but compare the 300 f2.8's from either brand and you'll see a MASSIVE difference swayed towards Pentax. Not too mention the resolution of the D300 is much higher than the 6MP K100D... about 100% more resolution......(snip)
Wow. You're the first person I've seen say the FA*300 f/4.5 basically sucks. From what I've seen from the people using it, it's actually quite good. Oh well.

I think that the work Tom's done with the k100d and FA*300mm f/4.5 has shown an amazing degree of quality and hope that in spite of the fact this is a Pentax forum, he keeps posting his nature photos - regardless of the system being used.

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
......You constantly complain and compare apples to oranges to make up for the fact you miss images........(snip)
Not at all like bringing 300mm f/2.8's into the mix when Tom was comparing a 300mm f/4.0 & a 300mm f/4.5. In this case, I think Tom's comparison is valid and your bringing up the 300mm f/2.8's - which he doesn't have - as Pentax's great redemption in the 300mm range, is bogus.

If you want to talk apples to oranges, lets talk your opinion on the best way to shoot Tom's chosen subject matter versus Tom's choice on how to photograph it.
QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
.....I calls them as I sees 'em and I know I'm going to get a bunch of hate mail and Adam will get some too. But like I said I'm still me and my moderator tag doesn't stop me from speaking whats on my mind.
You've added a lot of value to this forum, but right now your very personal displeasure at Tom's move to Nikon is over the top.

And until this forum gets renamed to the "Praise Pentax Circle-jerk", I think anyone who does have an opinion - good or bad - about the brand should be welcome to post their thoughts on the current products and what they want to see in the future. If this includes reasons why they decided to move on to a different brand, then that should be welcome too as well.
04-22-2008, 08:43 AM   #82
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AMEN! AND VERY WISELY SPOKEN! Andrew, good to see a few people still think like this old man does
04-22-2008, 09:04 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
I am intersted in the thread from a marketing perspective. I find it facinating to watch a brand like Pentax repositioning itself in the market place and grow its market share. I find it ammusing sometimes and more often frustrating to hear all of these demands for fast af, more fps, cheaper lenses, more lenses etc etc.
My interest is also from a marketing perspective and after over 35 years of experience in the field I am baffled at where Pentax is trying to position themselves. The latest figures indicate Pentax has lost market share as well as total volume in the last 5 months. The K20D and K200D have dropped in price already and they have only been available for 60 days, not a good sign. An entry level model isn't even offered.

It seems to me Pentax is doing nothing but holding on by their fingertips and hoping the Samsung sensor bails them out. I see no cohesive marketing strategy that will gain them either higher volume or more market share. What makes you think Pentax is "repositioning itself in the market place and grow its market share"?

Ken

04-22-2008, 09:09 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andrew Faires Quote
Wow. You're the first person I've seen say the FA*300 f/4.5 basically sucks. From what I've seen from the people using it, it's actually quite good. Oh well.

I think that the work Tom's done with the k100d and FA*300mm f/4.5 has shown an amazing degree of quality and hope that in spite of the fact this is a Pentax forum, he keeps posting his nature photos - regardless of the system being used.


Not at all like bringing 300mm f/2.8's into the mix when Tom was comparing a 300mm f/4.0 & a 300mm f/4.5. In this case, I think Tom's comparison is valid and your bringing up the 300mm f/2.8's - which he doesn't have - as Pentax's great redemption in the 300mm range, is bogus.

If you want to talk apples to oranges, lets talk your opinion on the best way to shoot Tom's chosen subject matter versus Tom's choice on how to photograph it.

You've added a lot of value to this forum, but right now your very personal displeasure at Tom's move to Nikon is over the top.

And until this forum gets renamed to the "Praise Pentax Circle-jerk", I think anyone who does have an opinion - good or bad - about the brand should be welcome to post their thoughts on the current products and what they want to see in the future. If this includes reasons why they decided to move on to a different brand, then that should be welcome too as well.
What are you talking about? This is not a personal displeasure at his switch but his constant shallow mindedness because Pentax doesn't do what he wants and people don't agree with him. He ignores that others are getting top quality results with the system and makes accusations that are unsound and has even pointed out specific forum members because he doesn't understand them or like what their answers are. He has pointed myself, Ben, Steve, Roland and others out because we are all apparently owned by Pentax in some way shape or form.

I really don't care what people shoot and have told people numerous times that if you don't feel like you can get what you want with what you have then by all means move on and do it. Tom has nit picked and argued his point about everything always making little off topic jabs to make himself feel better. He has truly become a RH and I point it out and I'm a hater because of his brand switch??? I don't get it, I guess people always have to look deep into the what I write to find stuff they don't like because it's fun to do or something.

I may praise Pentax but it's because I use it and understand it's shortcomings and work around it and make money shooting with my gear. Could I personally shoot another brand? Yes... would I? not till they make something I want and does what I need. I think it's rude to come in and find points in what I said to make me look bad, but hey I don't expect people to understand me.
04-22-2008, 09:27 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
What are you talking about? This is not a personal displeasure at his switch but his constant shallow mindedness because Pentax doesn't do what he wants and people don't agree with him. He ignores that others are getting top quality results with the system and makes accusations that are unsound and has even pointed out specific forum members because he doesn't understand them or like what their answers are. He has pointed myself, Ben, Steve, Roland and others out because we are all apparently owned by Pentax in some way shape or form.

I really don't care what people shoot and have told people numerous times that if you don't feel like you can get what you want with what you have then by all means move on and do it. Tom has nit picked and argued his point about everything always making little off topic jabs to make himself feel better. He has truly become a RH and I point it out and I'm a hater because of his brand switch??? I don't get it, I guess people always have to look deep into the what I write to find stuff they don't like because it's fun to do or something.

I may praise Pentax but it's because I use it and understand it's shortcomings and work around it and make money shooting with my gear. Could I personally shoot another brand? Yes... would I? not till they make something I want and does what I need. I think it's rude to come in and find points in what I said to make me look bad, but hey I don't expect people to understand me.
Show him wrong with valid arguments and explain us why shouldnt he (or RH or yourself) makes the points that he wants even if he is wrong. Take your time also to rethink your position as a moderator. I do think that you have the concept quite wrong.
04-22-2008, 09:31 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
Show him wrong with valid arguments and explain us why shouldnt he (or RH or yourself) makes the points that he wants even if he is wrong. Take your time also to rethink your position as a moderator. I do think that you have the concept quite wrong.
Once everyone acts like this maybe I'll think about it. I speak from my mind and honesty has always been my strong point even though people take it differently. And I did explain it in another post which you missed and again are trying to find faults in my statements.
04-22-2008, 09:33 AM   #87
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Examples:

Read my post on K20D high ISO, read my post on AF speed with DA* 200mm 2.8, look at Walkers BIF, look at Marc's macro and wildlife photos, look at the photo threads in general. The examples are here, just gotta look for them.
04-22-2008, 09:42 AM   #88
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I merely voiced my opinion

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
I suggest you actually read the whole dicussion that goes before and write something sensible next time. Ben did not fall out with Pentax purely because of Pentax and he is NOT signing up with another maker, he is still using the K20D.

Secondly if you are going to take every test online with dubious results as gospel and then spell the doom of Pentax as a result of this test then you are just being an idiot, or a troll. I had assumed you were not an idiot, sorry! I wont make the same mistake again.

I did read it. Pentax came last, not by a little, but by a long shot. I did not spell 'the doom' of Pentax. I was horrified at the results. You would think a company who started autofocus many years ago would have had a better system by now. The results were deplorable. I said nothing of the demise of Pentax.

And talking about reading deficiencies; I also did not say Ben was signing up with another maker, nor anything about the falling out.

You are WAY too serious about this stuff; lighten up. I didn't say half the stuff you accuse me of. And even if I did, I'm entitled to my opinion, and have certainly formed a strong negative opinion about you now.



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04-22-2008, 09:48 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Once everyone acts like this maybe I'll think about it. I speak from my mind and honesty has always been my strong point even though people take it differently. And I did explain it in another post which you missed and again are trying to find faults in my statements.
I didnt miss any point. I just didnt see any valid argument. Have you ever considered that people find faults to your statements cos they are faulty? I think that you would do an extraordinary job as a moderator if you apply some self-criticism to your arguments. To learn to respect other people disagreements would be also useful. You have a clear trend to use passive-aggresive arguments to attack others while trying to look like a victim. You may blame me about having some of these deffects but I would ask you to consider 2 points: first, I do back up (not always I recognize that) when I think that I am wrong (sometimes even if dont think it) and second, I am not a moderator (actually is the last thing I would like to be). I wouldnt like that you take this as an attack but if you do it I wont strike back.
04-22-2008, 09:54 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Examples:

Read my post on K20D high ISO, read my post on AF speed with DA* 200mm 2.8, look at Walkers BIF, look at Marc's macro and wildlife photos, look at the photo threads in general. The examples are here, just gotta look for them.
The problem that you dont seem to see is that there are thousands of examples of people having similar or better results with Canon, Nikon.... But the main problem that you dont seem to understand is that not all the people are as gifted as those that you put as an example. Most of the people dont have the talent, time or determination to make their hobby something stressful and succed with the use of a system that it is not optimal to those tasks. Please, keep that in mind when you consider other people's complains.
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